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[Music]

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foreign

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[Music]

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I'm gonna do a brief intro for both of

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you for any of our viewers and listeners

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who are not familiar with either of your

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work here at somewhere in the skies

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Sarah you've been on in the past so

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introducing my co-host for tonight I

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knew I had to have someone come on with

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me to have this conversation with Mitch

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because this is new for me

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um I I don't cover these topics much on

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the show I am a UFO podcast but we're

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going to see why this topic has so much

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to do with UFOs and the convergence

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we've seen we we're seeing play out uh

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in today's world with UFOs the occult

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and everything in between

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um so first I want to introduce Sarah

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Sarah Lyons is a leading author and

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practicing witch she and her work have

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appeared in Newsweek Vice Teen Vogue

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BuzzFeed and bust she is a recurring

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guest on the CW television series

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Mysteries decoded and has consulted

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numerous documentarians and filmmakers

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over the years her first book

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revolutionary witchcraft was published

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by running press in 2019 and her second

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book how to study magic releases on

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November 15th so Sarah welcome this back

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to somewhere in the skies it's good to

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be back Ryan thank you thank you for

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having me and uh nice repping the um

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Mysteries decoded fam

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go ahead that was a TV show both of us

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have been on we won't go into uh the the

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uh the behind the scenes of that best

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friend that can be a that can be an out

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off the mic

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he's had a great time

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it was fun it was fun well let's

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introduce our guests for tonight Mitch

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is no stranger to a lot of you out there

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but for those who aren't familiar with

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his work Mitch Horowitz is a historian

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of alternative spirituality and one of

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today's most literate voices of the

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esoterica mysticism and the Occult he is

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a writer in Residence at the New York

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Public Library contributing lecturer at

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the philosophical research Society in LA

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and the Penn award-winning author of

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books including occult America Daydream

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Believer in uncertain places

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his book awakened mind is one of the

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first works of new thought translated

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and published in Arabic

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he's written on everything from the war

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on witches which we will definitely

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discuss tonight to the checkered career

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of professional skeptic James Randy and

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he hosted and produced a featured

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documentary about the occult classic the

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kebalian directed by Emmy nominee Ronnie

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Thomas and shot on location in Egypt

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Mitch welcome to somewhere in the skies

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for the very first time great to be here

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y'all thanks for having me

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of course of course so I want to say off

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the bat um I've been following your work

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for a while now but I know a lot of

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people in the UFO world uh they might be

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new to you and your discussions and I

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think a lot of that came from a event

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that you recently spoke at uh I want to

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get this right this was in New York City

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and it was the in inquiry into anomalous

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experiences and the phenomenon which was

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hosted by Jay Christopher King and James

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iadali and uh I was so jealous I wasn't

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able to make it to this event when I saw

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the speakers list but uh before we even

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get into the occult and all the crazy

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amount of questions Sarah and I have for

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you man um tell us a little about this

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event and maybe a little about what you

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spoke of if you don't mind sure it was a

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very special event for me it it was a

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about two two and a half weeks ago from

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when we're all speaking it was the first

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time I've ever addressed a conference

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that was dedicated exclusively to the

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UFO thesis and I introduced myself as

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the in-law in the room because I care

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very deeply about the UFO thesis but it

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hasn't been a specific area of research

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for me primarily I document metaphysical

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experience in history and in practice

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and

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I grew increasingly interested in the

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UFO question because I started to

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consider whether there were connections

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between a UFO experiences and psychical

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phenomena and whether it part of what

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may be going on maybe our minds our

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psyches which I see as a compact of

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intellect and emotion

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traversing different intersections of

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time and that could be part of what lay

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behind certain anomalous experiences

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whether it's UFOs or Poltergeist

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experience Bigfoot and I started to

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think you know I've always regarded the

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UFO thesis as indirectly related to the

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occult but the uncertain places that we

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live in today are such that I think

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these conversations are starting to

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converge and the organizers took a

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chance and reached out to me and they

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just opened up the mic to me what I

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spoke about and the talk is up on

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YouTube actually on a couple of channels

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uh is called anomalous experiences and

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the crisis of skepticism and I spoke

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about the manner in which the seeking

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Community has pursued both the UFO and

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ESP thesis how these things may be

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converging and the paucity of real

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intellectual Excellence on the skeptical

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side of things because the skeptical

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side of things has to a great extent and

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become such an entrenched polemical Camp

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Reliant so heavily on its golden oldies

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so to speak and using the same

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phraseology using the same sleight of

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hand not really immersing itself in the

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material in any way that justifies

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the title skeptic which is a noble title

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and we need Skeptics Blake wrote

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opposition is true friendship we need

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people who are going to point out

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mistakes and accidents I used to walk up

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to the speaking Podium terrified of

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getting something factually wrong even

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just a date or something of that nature

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and I've realized over time look I'm

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human there is going to be a Thursday

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morning where I'm going to get something

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wrong and if and when I do and it's more

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than just a verbal typography error call

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me out on it you know call me out on it

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and when I write about ESP research for

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example which I care really deeply about

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I footnote it very heavily I have a

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massive chapter on ESP research in my

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book Daydream Believer I posted a piece

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recently at boing boing uh on the career

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of JB Ryan who's the pioneering ESP

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researcher all told at the end it had 46

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footnotes you know incur urge people go

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into the footnotes if I'm exaggerating

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call me out if I'm if I'm being overly

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um

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short-handed about something if I get us

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something wrong you know call me out and

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the Skeptics Community is incapable of

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engaging uh at that level because to

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them to engage at that level is to

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validate the question and they don't

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want to do that they want to invalidate

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their being a real question a debate in

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exchange so that was uh that was the

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other part of the talk

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right and you know I think sort of the

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uh I don't want to say the impetus but

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the backdrop of what you talked about uh

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was kind of framed around what has been

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happening in the past few years when it

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comes to the UFO topic I mean if you had

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told me

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five years ago that this topic was going

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to be in mainstream media we were going

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to be having serious debates about it

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the New York Times would be covering it

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um I would have thought you were crazy

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but then that all changed on one day uh

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none of us saw it coming which is

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usually how these things happen and uh

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the world kind of changed overnight at

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least for us in the UFO uh believer I

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guess I I hate using that word believer

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um in in so many senses but uh it just

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changed so what did you make of that is

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someone who kind of peripherally always

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looked at the topic it's now front and

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center uh what what do you make of this

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whole 2017 New York Times uh post

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ufology I guess it's it's really

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wonderful and it's really incredible and

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Helene Cooper Ralph Blumenthal Leslie

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Keane just performed amazing work that

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they got that into the times

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is extraordinary on so many terms just

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absolutely extraordinary

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and

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the coverage continued

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um they wrote other pieces in 2017 there

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were other pieces in 2019

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and I remember very vividly uh I was

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attending a panel on UFOs in summer of

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2019 of all places at the Guggenheim

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Museum in Manhattan

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not widely known as a fount of occult

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ideas and the place was packed and the

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panel was wonderful

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afterwards this very thoughtful curator

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who assembled it Troy Therian came up to

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me and he said let me ask you a question

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at what point in our culture do you

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think it's going to become

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intellectually embarrassing to dismiss

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the UFO question you know it's just

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swamp gas you're imagining things

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you're drinking moonshine whatever and I

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said you know honestly right at this

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instant right now no one of any real

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intellectual substance or seriousness

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could deny the validity of the UFO

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question or the prospect of engineered

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phenomena you captured on

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um some of the videos that we have and

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that that these aforementioned reporters

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have explored and it's funny I remember

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not not long after that there was a very

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long piece in the New Yorker about

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Leslie and and and Lou Elizondo and UFOs

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and I thought okay this is all just

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going to be the red carpet leading up

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the steps to the guillotine you know

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where is it coming where's the ax

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where's the blade and there was no blade

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there was no blade And the reporter

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whose Name Escapes me but he really

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deserves credit

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he did something I'd never seen done

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before in an opinion shaping so-called

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mainstream journal and that is and this

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was really remarkable and fruitful and

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it made for exciting reading as well

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he held the Skeptics to the same

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standards as again you know we don't

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like to use the term believer but the

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Skeptics to the same term terms as The

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Advocates will say and it was remarkable

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because not only was it truthful but he

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examined the manner in which the

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Skeptics are boxed into their own world

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of denial and they've painted themselves

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into a corner that permits almost no

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room for flexibility which is why there

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are arguments on a given issue tend to

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grow more and more of vociferous and

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more and more recycled as time goes on

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because they've allowed for almost zero

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flexibility in their position which is a

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really bad place to be intellectually

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and

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I came away from that article with a

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point of view that the reporter himself

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was questioning of what some of the

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Advocates had to say but he was also

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questioning of what some of the

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00:11:55,430 --> 00:11:53,940
um professional Skeptics had to say and

276
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he made the observation and I've never

277
00:12:02,210 --> 00:11:57,839
seen this before of

278
00:12:03,350 --> 00:12:02,220
how the Skeptics themselves work a kind

279
00:12:05,810 --> 00:12:03,360
of

280
00:12:08,449 --> 00:12:05,820
dog and pony show and they have certain

281
00:12:11,750 --> 00:12:08,459
tropes certain personal traits certain

282
00:12:13,790 --> 00:12:11,760
ways of couching their phraseology that

283
00:12:16,130 --> 00:12:13,800
are trying to influence whomever The

284
00:12:17,990 --> 00:12:16,140
Listener is and one could say well gee

285
00:12:20,150 --> 00:12:18,000
that's not news I mean that's just kind

286
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:20,160
of human nature we all do that to some

287
00:12:25,610 --> 00:12:22,560
greater or lesser extent but I had never

288
00:12:26,810 --> 00:12:25,620
seen the Skeptics subjected to being

289
00:12:30,410 --> 00:12:26,820
x-rayed

290
00:12:32,329 --> 00:12:30,420
side by side with the Advocates and I

291
00:12:34,610 --> 00:12:32,339
thought to myself this is not going away

292
00:12:37,090 --> 00:12:34,620
you know this is not just the you know

293
00:12:40,310 --> 00:12:37,100
UFO Summer of Love This is really

294
00:12:43,009 --> 00:12:40,320
changing our culture and so it has so it

295
00:12:45,170 --> 00:12:43,019
has yeah I mean to the point where we

296
00:12:46,970 --> 00:12:45,180
have a new office opening in the US

297
00:12:48,170 --> 00:12:46,980
government and you know make of that

298
00:12:51,650 --> 00:12:48,180
what you will I know a lot of people

299
00:12:53,810 --> 00:12:51,660
don't you know put any uh stock in what

300
00:12:55,190 --> 00:12:53,820
the US government has to do or say about

301
00:12:57,290 --> 00:12:55,200
this topic

302
00:12:59,930 --> 00:12:57,300
um having been part of a quote-unquote

303
00:13:02,449 --> 00:12:59,940
cover-up for some 50 years if you do

304
00:13:03,350 --> 00:13:02,459
believe that uh but we it had you're

305
00:13:05,329 --> 00:13:03,360
right

306
00:13:07,129 --> 00:13:05,339
um there's no putting the genie back in

307
00:13:09,530 --> 00:13:07,139
the bottle uh right we've had

308
00:13:12,170 --> 00:13:09,540
Congressional hearings it's crazy right

309
00:13:15,410 --> 00:13:12,180
and if I may uh just to add something to

310
00:13:18,110 --> 00:13:15,420
that about the uh government office DOD

311
00:13:19,490 --> 00:13:18,120
office NASA office seen from one

312
00:13:20,269 --> 00:13:19,500
perspective

313
00:13:24,110 --> 00:13:20,279
um

314
00:13:30,470 --> 00:13:27,710
the advocacy of exploring the UFO thesis

315
00:13:33,310 --> 00:13:30,480
has come under

316
00:13:35,389 --> 00:13:33,320
um duplicitous and dishonest

317
00:13:37,190 --> 00:13:35,399
characterization by the government and

318
00:13:40,250 --> 00:13:37,200
we know this through foia requests and

319
00:13:42,829 --> 00:13:40,260
other things and secede from one

320
00:13:44,750 --> 00:13:42,839
perspective there's good reason for

321
00:13:47,629 --> 00:13:44,760
those of us who care deeply about

322
00:13:50,930 --> 00:13:47,639
advocacy of of exploring the UFO

323
00:13:53,449 --> 00:13:50,940
question to feel

324
00:13:56,389 --> 00:13:53,459
um skeptical of the government's

325
00:13:58,610 --> 00:13:56,399
involvement but at the same time one

326
00:14:01,009 --> 00:13:58,620
mustn't be too rigid about that Gary

327
00:14:03,050 --> 00:14:01,019
Nolan uh the immunologist from Stanford

328
00:14:05,569 --> 00:14:03,060
who's done a lot to study the E.T

329
00:14:07,730 --> 00:14:05,579
question he was also speaking at this

330
00:14:11,389 --> 00:14:07,740
same conference and he was asked a

331
00:14:14,110 --> 00:14:11,399
question about from the audience about

332
00:14:16,250 --> 00:14:14,120
uh rejectionists in the government

333
00:14:18,230 --> 00:14:16,260
purposefully putting out misinformation

334
00:14:19,910 --> 00:14:18,240
or things of that nature and Gary said

335
00:14:22,730 --> 00:14:19,920
something that is so important and it

336
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:22,740
warrants amplification he said look you

337
00:14:26,509 --> 00:14:24,480
know within the intelligence War world

338
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,519
within the defense world within NASA

339
00:14:31,069 --> 00:14:29,279
you've got a complex of factors going on

340
00:14:34,129 --> 00:14:31,079
you've got people who are veritable

341
00:14:36,290 --> 00:14:34,139
whistleblowers who want to get this

342
00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:36,300
information into the public eye and yes

343
00:14:42,949 --> 00:14:39,600
you've got people who are dedicated to

344
00:14:46,250 --> 00:14:42,959
rejectionism or or for whatever reason a

345
00:14:48,650 --> 00:14:46,260
disinfo and one has to remember that

346
00:14:50,389 --> 00:14:48,660
there are whistleblowers and there are

347
00:14:51,710 --> 00:14:50,399
whistleblowers in finance their

348
00:14:55,009 --> 00:14:51,720
whistleblowers in government there

349
00:14:56,629 --> 00:14:55,019
whistle blows everywhere for as diverse

350
00:14:59,569 --> 00:14:56,639
a number of reasons as there are human

351
00:15:01,550 --> 00:14:59,579
beings and you've got that same Dynamic

352
00:15:03,710 --> 00:15:01,560
playing out where there's people who

353
00:15:05,210 --> 00:15:03,720
want to forward the debate who want to

354
00:15:07,250 --> 00:15:05,220
move the ball down the field and there's

355
00:15:08,810 --> 00:15:07,260
people who who want to disable the

356
00:15:11,810 --> 00:15:08,820
debate and and we're going to see both

357
00:15:14,269 --> 00:15:11,820
going on mm-hmm yeah I mean if I could

358
00:15:16,850 --> 00:15:14,279
if I can just jump in there like I think

359
00:15:19,850 --> 00:15:16,860
it there's a tendency to say like the

360
00:15:21,769 --> 00:15:19,860
government and then that's this blanket

361
00:15:25,189 --> 00:15:21,779
entity when really like the US

362
00:15:26,769 --> 00:15:25,199
government is a Mis a bunch of often

363
00:15:30,889 --> 00:15:26,779
competing

364
00:15:32,990 --> 00:15:30,899
ideological and political like messes

365
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:33,000
and like agencies with their own agendas

366
00:15:39,000 --> 00:15:36,000
and their own ideas about a lot of this

367
00:15:39,290 --> 00:15:39,010
stuff and and so it's like not very

368
00:15:40,250 --> 00:15:39,300
[Music]

369
00:15:42,410 --> 00:15:40,260
um

370
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:42,420
it's not very precise to just talk about

371
00:15:47,810 --> 00:15:44,639
it as like one entity and and I've seen

372
00:15:49,850 --> 00:15:47,820
this a little bit about now the kind of

373
00:15:52,490 --> 00:15:49,860
new skeptical thing that I am seeing is

374
00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:52,500
not people saying well there's no like

375
00:15:55,370 --> 00:15:53,880
no one's seeing anything in the skies

376
00:15:56,930 --> 00:15:55,380
this is all something else they're

377
00:15:59,449 --> 00:15:56,940
saying it's it's

378
00:16:02,210 --> 00:15:59,459
drones or it's new technology and this

379
00:16:03,889 --> 00:16:02,220
is all a ploy to like you know uh hype

380
00:16:05,329 --> 00:16:03,899
up fear to bring us into war with China

381
00:16:08,150 --> 00:16:05,339
or bring us into war with Russia or

382
00:16:09,949 --> 00:16:08,160
something like that and I I I understand

383
00:16:12,590 --> 00:16:09,959
where that skepticism is coming from

384
00:16:16,009 --> 00:16:12,600
because it's not like lies like that

385
00:16:17,990 --> 00:16:16,019
haven't happened before but it's just so

386
00:16:20,030 --> 00:16:18,000
um it's so intellectually lazy to me

387
00:16:21,290 --> 00:16:20,040
like it's it's not you can tell that the

388
00:16:23,449 --> 00:16:21,300
people who are making that argument

389
00:16:25,370 --> 00:16:23,459
haven't really looked into the UFO

390
00:16:27,710 --> 00:16:25,380
phenomenon like what that is when we're

391
00:16:29,689 --> 00:16:27,720
talking about it very much and like how

392
00:16:32,150 --> 00:16:29,699
weird it is and what a complicated thing

393
00:16:34,129 --> 00:16:32,160
it is and I I just think it's like

394
00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:34,139
there's a lot of intellectual laziness

395
00:16:38,749 --> 00:16:36,060
when it comes to this topic that it

396
00:16:40,129 --> 00:16:38,759
seems very simple at top at the top and

397
00:16:43,550 --> 00:16:40,139
then once you get into it it's so much

398
00:16:45,949 --> 00:16:43,560
weirder than you thought it was that is

399
00:16:47,930 --> 00:16:45,959
such an important point and I feel like

400
00:16:50,449 --> 00:16:47,940
what you all are doing on this podcast

401
00:16:53,090 --> 00:16:50,459
and what I saw in practice at the

402
00:16:56,210 --> 00:16:53,100
conference is just incredibly refreshing

403
00:16:58,790 --> 00:16:56,220
because I think that a toll has been

404
00:17:01,790 --> 00:16:58,800
taken social on the ufology movement

405
00:17:04,669 --> 00:17:01,800
because of past and possibly present

406
00:17:06,470 --> 00:17:04,679
cover-ups that's real and it's very

407
00:17:08,329 --> 00:17:06,480
understanding that when you feel feel

408
00:17:11,809 --> 00:17:08,339
that people are [\h__\h] with you it gets

409
00:17:15,049 --> 00:17:11,819
you into a constant defensive Crouch but

410
00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:15,059
you know as Sarah was pointing out very

411
00:17:19,130 --> 00:17:16,500
rightly

412
00:17:21,949 --> 00:17:19,140
there's a complexity of factors going on

413
00:17:23,569 --> 00:17:21,959
in any human situation if you have a

414
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:23,579
personal problem there's a complexity of

415
00:17:27,350 --> 00:17:25,439
factors there's a complexity of factors

416
00:17:30,169 --> 00:17:27,360
behind a social problem and there's

417
00:17:33,350 --> 00:17:30,179
going to be if any a complexity of

418
00:17:36,710 --> 00:17:33,360
solutions so like for example when the

419
00:17:40,270 --> 00:17:36,720
social media companies are concealing

420
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:40,280
their own in-house

421
00:17:47,029 --> 00:17:43,039
studies of

422
00:17:49,130 --> 00:17:47,039
posts or or patterns that tend to feed

423
00:17:51,710 --> 00:17:49,140
violence

424
00:17:54,049 --> 00:17:51,720
um we know about these things because of

425
00:17:57,830 --> 00:17:54,059
whistleblowers The Wall Street Journal

426
00:18:01,750 --> 00:17:57,840
did a terrific series about how Facebook

427
00:18:05,330 --> 00:18:01,760
now called meta has suppressed its own

428
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:05,340
algorithmic research into the manner in

429
00:18:09,110 --> 00:18:06,720
which certain of its posts were

430
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:09,120
fermenting violence specifically against

431
00:18:15,409 --> 00:18:12,000
Muslims in India and that's a deadly

432
00:18:16,909 --> 00:18:15,419
deadly problem that's a huge problem and

433
00:18:19,250 --> 00:18:16,919
we know about this because

434
00:18:20,870 --> 00:18:19,260
whistleblowers from the inside leaked

435
00:18:22,909 --> 00:18:20,880
this info to a Wall Street Journal

436
00:18:24,950 --> 00:18:22,919
reporter and he ran with it for a

437
00:18:26,810 --> 00:18:24,960
five-part series there are going to be

438
00:18:29,750 --> 00:18:26,820
other instances where the reporter is

439
00:18:31,549 --> 00:18:29,760
excessively cozy with the prevailing

440
00:18:33,289 --> 00:18:31,559
powers and things that should get said

441
00:18:35,690 --> 00:18:33,299
or should get framed in a certain way

442
00:18:37,430 --> 00:18:35,700
maybe don't

443
00:18:40,430 --> 00:18:37,440
um you know Julian Barnes in the New

444
00:18:42,830 --> 00:18:40,440
York Times had this piece that we've

445
00:18:45,409 --> 00:18:42,840
alluded to because now it's about 10 day

446
00:18:47,330 --> 00:18:45,419
days ago where he said well the sources

447
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:47,340
I've spoken to say it's all space junk

448
00:18:50,990 --> 00:18:49,200
and this is going to

449
00:18:53,810 --> 00:18:51,000
well now you can space junk drones or

450
00:18:56,150 --> 00:18:53,820
what have you and this is going to um

451
00:18:58,570 --> 00:18:56,160
moment debate and so forth you know so

452
00:19:01,970 --> 00:18:58,580
there are times where a reporter's voice

453
00:19:04,010 --> 00:19:01,980
uh Cuts One Way Cuts another usually it

454
00:19:05,990 --> 00:19:04,020
is a pattern but there's um

455
00:19:08,750 --> 00:19:06,000
there's such a multiplicity of people

456
00:19:11,150 --> 00:19:08,760
involved in this at this point both

457
00:19:13,549 --> 00:19:11,160
inside both outside both within media

458
00:19:16,610 --> 00:19:13,559
within the questioning Community every

459
00:19:18,710 --> 00:19:16,620
day you know everyday people and

460
00:19:20,570 --> 00:19:18,720
um there's a lot going on there's a

461
00:19:22,370 --> 00:19:20,580
complexity of things going on and we

462
00:19:25,430 --> 00:19:22,380
mustn't get too rigid

463
00:19:28,850 --> 00:19:25,440
right the UFO phenomenon a lot going on

464
00:19:31,070 --> 00:19:28,860
there right right A lot of people and a

465
00:19:32,390 --> 00:19:31,080
lot of motives yeah right well let's

466
00:19:35,390 --> 00:19:32,400
let's talk about some of those

467
00:19:39,049 --> 00:19:35,400
complexities and motives um I know Sarah

468
00:19:41,810 --> 00:19:39,059
literally just got back to New York from

469
00:19:44,450 --> 00:19:41,820
um the Hudson Valley and the Hudson

470
00:19:47,750 --> 00:19:44,460
Valley is just like one of those places

471
00:19:51,470 --> 00:19:47,760
both for the occult and for ufology that

472
00:19:53,090 --> 00:19:51,480
just it has such a rich history

473
00:19:55,190 --> 00:19:53,100
um so I'd love to give both their

474
00:19:56,810 --> 00:19:55,200
thoughts on this we have this Rich

475
00:19:58,549 --> 00:19:56,820
history of the occult there which Mitch

476
00:20:00,470 --> 00:19:58,559
I'd love for you to touch on if you

477
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:00,480
don't mind and then we also have this

478
00:20:04,789 --> 00:20:02,640
crazy UFO wave that happened in the 80s

479
00:20:07,190 --> 00:20:04,799
and then we also had Whitley strieber's

480
00:20:09,529 --> 00:20:07,200
event happen not too far from the Hudson

481
00:20:12,590 --> 00:20:09,539
Valley so for me I'm just like there's

482
00:20:14,990 --> 00:20:12,600
got to be some geological or

483
00:20:18,289 --> 00:20:15,000
geographical reason for all of this

484
00:20:21,230 --> 00:20:18,299
stuff to have maybe imprinted itself in

485
00:20:23,029 --> 00:20:21,240
this one area or maybe it's sheer

486
00:20:25,250 --> 00:20:23,039
coincidence I don't know but but I love

487
00:20:27,710 --> 00:20:25,260
both your thoughts on uh the Hudson

488
00:20:29,510 --> 00:20:27,720
Valley and everything going on there uh

489
00:20:31,010 --> 00:20:29,520
Mitch I guess we'll start with you man

490
00:20:33,770 --> 00:20:31,020
if you don't mind giving us sort of the

491
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:33,780
occult angle there sure I mean there is

492
00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:35,520
such a rich occult history there when I

493
00:20:40,370 --> 00:20:37,280
was writing my first book called America

494
00:20:42,169 --> 00:20:40,380
I went into the writing expecting to

495
00:20:44,210 --> 00:20:42,179
spend a lot more time on California

496
00:20:46,669 --> 00:20:44,220
because everybody sees California and

497
00:20:48,650 --> 00:20:46,679
rightly so as the engine of religious

498
00:20:50,930 --> 00:20:48,660
novelty the springboard of the new age

499
00:20:53,529 --> 00:20:50,940
and so forth and that's very very valid

500
00:20:57,590 --> 00:20:53,539
but what I discovered to my surprise

501
00:20:59,570 --> 00:20:57,600
more and more was the centrality of

502
00:21:02,330 --> 00:20:59,580
Upstate New York specifically Central

503
00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:02,340
New York State and the Hudson Valley to

504
00:21:06,590 --> 00:21:04,440
the development of a new kind of

505
00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:06,600
occultism uh in the modern world

506
00:21:11,930 --> 00:21:08,640
specifically for a couple of generations

507
00:21:14,570 --> 00:21:11,940
in the early 19th century and

508
00:21:16,190 --> 00:21:14,580
this area specifically of Central New

509
00:21:18,830 --> 00:21:16,200
York was called the burned over district

510
00:21:20,930 --> 00:21:18,840
and it really was connected arterially

511
00:21:22,490 --> 00:21:20,940
to the Hudson Valley especially since he

512
00:21:23,930 --> 00:21:22,500
had to go through the Hudson Valley to

513
00:21:26,110 --> 00:21:23,940
get up to the burned over District

514
00:21:30,049 --> 00:21:26,120
depending on where you were coming from

515
00:21:32,270 --> 00:21:30,059
and that was the birthplace of so many

516
00:21:34,370 --> 00:21:32,280
new religions Mormonism Seventh-Day

517
00:21:36,169 --> 00:21:34,380
adventism the spiritualist movement as

518
00:21:37,730 --> 00:21:36,179
well as social movements the separagist

519
00:21:40,570 --> 00:21:37,740
movement

520
00:21:43,490 --> 00:21:40,580
first

521
00:21:46,909 --> 00:21:43,500
experiments in communal living or the

522
00:21:49,850 --> 00:21:46,919
practice of voluntary communism and it

523
00:21:51,950 --> 00:21:49,860
was just an unbelievable place that kept

524
00:21:54,169 --> 00:21:51,960
producing all of these radical movements

525
00:21:57,169 --> 00:21:54,179
one after the other for the first half

526
00:22:00,230 --> 00:21:57,179
of the 19th century and a lot of

527
00:22:02,690 --> 00:22:00,240
folklore went back very deep in the

528
00:22:05,270 --> 00:22:02,700
Hudson Valley that it had once been home

529
00:22:07,370 --> 00:22:05,280
to an ancient tribe of Israel older than

530
00:22:10,370 --> 00:22:07,380
any of the

531
00:22:12,409 --> 00:22:10,380
oldest Indian tribes this tribe got

532
00:22:15,649 --> 00:22:12,419
wiped out in a conflagration with the

533
00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:15,659
Native Americans and this very Mythos

534
00:22:20,930 --> 00:22:17,880
and I used that term in the in its

535
00:22:23,750 --> 00:22:20,940
highest sense appears in Joseph Smith's

536
00:22:26,510 --> 00:22:23,760
Book of Mormon published in 1830 that

537
00:22:28,490 --> 00:22:26,520
was a a book and a movement that emerged

538
00:22:29,990 --> 00:22:28,500
from the burned over district and

539
00:22:31,669 --> 00:22:30,000
depending on your point of view you

540
00:22:34,669 --> 00:22:31,679
could either say that the Book of Mormon

541
00:22:37,430 --> 00:22:34,679
is echoing local folklore or confirming

542
00:22:39,590 --> 00:22:37,440
local folklore it all depends upon one's

543
00:22:41,870 --> 00:22:39,600
perspective but there are so many such

544
00:22:43,130 --> 00:22:41,880
episodes and then of course in the

545
00:22:45,890 --> 00:22:43,140
Hudson Valley

546
00:22:48,110 --> 00:22:45,900
you had in the Town of Poughkeepsie uh

547
00:22:50,270 --> 00:22:48,120
the presence of Andrew Jackson Davis in

548
00:22:52,549 --> 00:22:50,280
the 1840s he was known as the

549
00:22:54,950 --> 00:22:52,559
Poughkeepsie Seer he popularized

550
00:22:56,690 --> 00:22:54,960
mesmerism across the country he helped

551
00:22:59,330 --> 00:22:56,700
popularize spiritualism across the

552
00:23:02,149 --> 00:22:59,340
country and although he never uttered an

553
00:23:04,070 --> 00:23:02,159
explicitly political word his vision was

554
00:23:07,130 --> 00:23:04,080
a very radical one because he would go

555
00:23:09,049 --> 00:23:07,140
into these trans States and travel so he

556
00:23:10,490 --> 00:23:09,059
said to the afterlife and the afterlife

557
00:23:14,330 --> 00:23:10,500
was filled with all kinds of different

558
00:23:16,190 --> 00:23:14,340
people Catholics and Jews and vanquished

559
00:23:19,610 --> 00:23:16,200
Indian tribes and people from other

560
00:23:23,390 --> 00:23:19,620
lands and eras and without directly say

561
00:23:25,730 --> 00:23:23,400
so Andrew was undermining the idea so

562
00:23:28,190 --> 00:23:25,740
widespread at that time that salvation

563
00:23:30,649 --> 00:23:28,200
is only available through one Doctrine

564
00:23:32,810 --> 00:23:30,659
or one congregation one church and

565
00:23:36,289 --> 00:23:32,820
Americans took to it they really took to

566
00:23:37,850 --> 00:23:36,299
it so it's continued obviously I was

567
00:23:42,470 --> 00:23:37,860
just interviewing Whitley Streeper the

568
00:23:44,750 --> 00:23:42,480
other day for um a program uh of UFO

569
00:23:48,649 --> 00:23:44,760
themed film that's showing at Anthology

570
00:23:50,750 --> 00:23:48,659
film archives right now actually and we

571
00:23:53,270 --> 00:23:50,760
talked about his Hudson Valley cabin and

572
00:23:55,190 --> 00:23:53,280
his experiences but the thing I now

573
00:23:57,110 --> 00:23:55,200
realize that I'm neglected to ask

574
00:23:58,970 --> 00:23:57,120
Whitley and we've known one another for

575
00:24:01,490 --> 00:23:58,980
12 years I've never been asked him this

576
00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:01,500
question why the Hudson Valley you know

577
00:24:07,130 --> 00:24:04,740
what is going on there so since Sarah

578
00:24:08,630 --> 00:24:07,140
has been there most recently maybe she

579
00:24:11,149 --> 00:24:08,640
can respond to the question I didn't ask

580
00:24:13,010 --> 00:24:11,159
yeah please well what's so funny is that

581
00:24:15,590 --> 00:24:13,020
the people that I was staying there with

582
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:15,600
I I have a friend a couple that live up

583
00:24:21,409 --> 00:24:18,960
there and they see UFOs like all the

584
00:24:22,909 --> 00:24:21,419
time like they're UFO magnets especially

585
00:24:25,370 --> 00:24:22,919
um it's a husband and wife and the

586
00:24:27,409 --> 00:24:25,380
husband is like literally as a UFO

587
00:24:29,750 --> 00:24:27,419
magnet he just sees UFOs all over the

588
00:24:31,370 --> 00:24:29,760
place and like it's so casual to them

589
00:24:33,649 --> 00:24:31,380
where we're getting ready to start a

590
00:24:35,390 --> 00:24:33,659
fire and like a bonfire and he goes like

591
00:24:37,610 --> 00:24:35,400
Oh it's overcast but maybe we'll see

592
00:24:39,950 --> 00:24:37,620
some UFOs tonight like as if it's just

593
00:24:41,510 --> 00:24:39,960
you know Birds you know migrating birds

594
00:24:44,029 --> 00:24:41,520
and

595
00:24:45,950 --> 00:24:44,039
um I mean I think that they're that's

596
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:45,960
something I think about a lot with how

597
00:24:51,350 --> 00:24:48,480
weird the UFO phenomenon is as a whole

598
00:24:53,630 --> 00:24:51,360
not just the Hudson Valley is like that

599
00:24:55,190 --> 00:24:53,640
it can be attracted to a single person I

600
00:24:57,470 --> 00:24:55,200
I have this other thing kind of with

601
00:24:59,029 --> 00:24:57,480
that that I maybe this maybe this is a

602
00:25:01,070 --> 00:24:59,039
little too heady and a little too weird

603
00:25:02,990 --> 00:25:01,080
but I think that whatever the phenomenon

604
00:25:05,390 --> 00:25:03,000
is definitely has a sense of humor

605
00:25:07,610 --> 00:25:05,400
because both of these people are artists

606
00:25:10,430 --> 00:25:07,620
um he works in advertising and graphic

607
00:25:12,110 --> 00:25:10,440
design and she is an illustrator and I

608
00:25:13,970 --> 00:25:12,120
think it's like of course they're

609
00:25:15,770 --> 00:25:13,980
appearing to you guys because no one

610
00:25:17,750 --> 00:25:15,780
would believe you if you came forward

611
00:25:20,090 --> 00:25:17,760
and showed these pictures because you

612
00:25:21,350 --> 00:25:20,100
would know how to photoshop this but I

613
00:25:23,330 --> 00:25:21,360
know that you're not lying to me because

614
00:25:25,789 --> 00:25:23,340
I'm seeing them too when I'm around you

615
00:25:27,169 --> 00:25:25,799
so it's just like I it there to me

616
00:25:29,450 --> 00:25:27,179
that's like a weird sense of humor that

617
00:25:30,769 --> 00:25:29,460
it has but I don't know it's interesting

618
00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:30,779
that to me I want to go back to

619
00:25:34,250 --> 00:25:32,340
something you said Ryan that you brought

620
00:25:35,870 --> 00:25:34,260
up something like geological

621
00:25:38,630 --> 00:25:35,880
but there might be something in the land

622
00:25:40,250 --> 00:25:38,640
itself that you know is causing it and I

623
00:25:41,870 --> 00:25:40,260
think that that's not a wrong impulse

624
00:25:43,669 --> 00:25:41,880
but it does it is a little bit of a

625
00:25:46,010 --> 00:25:43,679
materialist impulse right that you want

626
00:25:47,750 --> 00:25:46,020
to find a like there's got to be quartz

627
00:25:48,710 --> 00:25:47,760
deposits under there right or there's

628
00:25:50,330 --> 00:25:48,720
got to be some sort of like

629
00:25:52,070 --> 00:25:50,340
electromagnetic field and there might be

630
00:25:54,289 --> 00:25:52,080
like I'm not a geologist I don't know

631
00:25:56,330 --> 00:25:54,299
but there is something I think to be

632
00:25:59,510 --> 00:25:56,340
said for when you get enough people in

633
00:26:02,210 --> 00:25:59,520
an area over a very long period of time

634
00:26:04,190 --> 00:26:02,220
praying or doing magic or thinking in a

635
00:26:05,870 --> 00:26:04,200
certain way I think that that creates

636
00:26:07,250 --> 00:26:05,880
kind of a morphic field and Mitch

637
00:26:11,090 --> 00:26:07,260
probably can speak about this more than

638
00:26:13,010 --> 00:26:11,100
I can but I I it's hard to uh categorize

639
00:26:15,470 --> 00:26:13,020
A vibe you know it's hard to put a vibe

640
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:15,480
in a bottle but it's definitely a real

641
00:26:19,070 --> 00:26:17,279
thing and I think that you know when you

642
00:26:21,289 --> 00:26:19,080
when you have a place that was very

643
00:26:23,510 --> 00:26:21,299
sacred to indigenous peoples that were

644
00:26:25,070 --> 00:26:23,520
there before with I didn't we don't have

645
00:26:27,470 --> 00:26:25,080
to get into like the whole Hiawatha myth

646
00:26:28,610 --> 00:26:27,480
and like the you know rule giver and all

647
00:26:31,430 --> 00:26:28,620
this kind of stuff but it was a very

648
00:26:33,529 --> 00:26:31,440
like sacred place even before settlers

649
00:26:35,450 --> 00:26:33,539
came and then afterward it's obviously

650
00:26:37,490 --> 00:26:35,460
maintains this very sacred very

651
00:26:38,870 --> 00:26:37,500
religious kind of fervor there's

652
00:26:40,310 --> 00:26:38,880
something to be said I think for like

653
00:26:42,169 --> 00:26:40,320
you know

654
00:26:44,630 --> 00:26:42,179
uh

655
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:44,640
ideas can catch like pollen you know and

656
00:26:48,289 --> 00:26:46,320
just attach themselves to people and

657
00:26:49,789 --> 00:26:48,299
blossom and grow in this way and I think

658
00:26:52,370 --> 00:26:49,799
that that's a region where that's been

659
00:26:54,409 --> 00:26:52,380
very rich over the years

660
00:26:56,029 --> 00:26:54,419
that's that's fascinating and I've asked

661
00:26:58,610 --> 00:26:56,039
some of the same questions myself about

662
00:27:00,470 --> 00:26:58,620
California in the 20th century what is

663
00:27:03,529 --> 00:27:00,480
it about California especially Southern

664
00:27:05,990 --> 00:27:03,539
California that has made it such a

665
00:27:07,789 --> 00:27:06,000
Proving Ground for new spiritual ideas

666
00:27:10,850 --> 00:27:07,799
that are frequently spread out across

667
00:27:13,610 --> 00:27:10,860
the world in 1888 when Madam H.P

668
00:27:16,130 --> 00:27:13,620
blavatsky published her a cult cosmology

669
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:16,140
the secret Doctrine she said that

670
00:27:20,870 --> 00:27:18,960
Humanity was poised for another step

671
00:27:23,169 --> 00:27:20,880
forward in the evolution of

672
00:27:26,690 --> 00:27:23,179
Consciousness or the psychical Evolution

673
00:27:29,210 --> 00:27:26,700
and she said it is in in California that

674
00:27:31,730 --> 00:27:29,220
the change will begin and this was 1888

675
00:27:34,370 --> 00:27:31,740
when California you know although it was

676
00:27:36,409 --> 00:27:34,380
thriving agriculturally was a it was a

677
00:27:40,450 --> 00:27:36,419
Cow Town you know and and you had

678
00:27:42,169 --> 00:27:40,460
ranches and you had mines and you had

679
00:27:43,909 --> 00:27:42,179
Groves

680
00:27:45,590 --> 00:27:43,919
um but it was very much an agricultural

681
00:27:47,450 --> 00:27:45,600
area not the area that you would have

682
00:27:48,890 --> 00:27:47,460
picked out in 1888 for you know that's

683
00:27:50,810 --> 00:27:48,900
where it's all going to go down you know

684
00:27:52,310 --> 00:27:50,820
you might have said Paris or something

685
00:27:55,190 --> 00:27:52,320
of that nature and she's saying

686
00:27:58,789 --> 00:27:55,200
California and her uh Protege

687
00:28:01,370 --> 00:27:58,799
antibescent uh specifically felt that um

688
00:28:02,570 --> 00:28:01,380
that that that uh Madame levaski was

689
00:28:05,029 --> 00:28:02,580
talking about southern in California

690
00:28:07,789 --> 00:28:05,039
that was her takeaway at least again

691
00:28:10,850 --> 00:28:07,799
long before uh this really developed

692
00:28:12,529 --> 00:28:10,860
into this new age Mecca so it's very

693
00:28:13,850 --> 00:28:12,539
interesting what Sarah is saying about

694
00:28:16,130 --> 00:28:13,860
uh

695
00:28:20,450 --> 00:28:16,140
um amorphic field or you know something

696
00:28:22,250 --> 00:28:20,460
I mean we there are studies that contend

697
00:28:24,769 --> 00:28:22,260
that

698
00:28:28,010 --> 00:28:24,779
like mindsets particularly meditative

699
00:28:30,710 --> 00:28:28,020
mindsets will wield and influence over a

700
00:28:32,570 --> 00:28:30,720
given area my friends in the TM movement

701
00:28:34,909 --> 00:28:32,580
call it the Maharishi effect which

702
00:28:38,269 --> 00:28:34,919
they've sought to study when you have a

703
00:28:40,269 --> 00:28:38,279
certain uh core of people meditating

704
00:28:42,710 --> 00:28:40,279
within a

705
00:28:45,470 --> 00:28:42,720
geographical zone for a certain period

706
00:28:46,370 --> 00:28:45,480
of time their Studies have

707
00:28:52,610 --> 00:28:46,380
um

708
00:28:54,169 --> 00:28:52,620
and other maladies and so it's an

709
00:28:56,269 --> 00:28:54,179
interesting question especially if one

710
00:28:59,330 --> 00:28:56,279
considers the UFO question in

711
00:29:01,909 --> 00:28:59,340
conjunction with psychical research is

712
00:29:04,130 --> 00:29:01,919
it possible uh and I'm speaking in

713
00:29:06,350 --> 00:29:04,140
shorthand here but I I explored these

714
00:29:09,529 --> 00:29:06,360
issues a lot in different articles and

715
00:29:12,110 --> 00:29:09,539
and inquiries into ESB research is it

716
00:29:14,750 --> 00:29:12,120
possible if our psyches are capable of

717
00:29:16,190 --> 00:29:14,760
moving among different intersections of

718
00:29:18,649 --> 00:29:16,200
time or what we sometimes Call

719
00:29:21,049 --> 00:29:18,659
Dimensions and there's there's evidence

720
00:29:23,090 --> 00:29:21,059
of this effect even if the vocabulary is

721
00:29:23,990 --> 00:29:23,100
kind of metaphorical

722
00:29:26,269 --> 00:29:24,000
um

723
00:29:27,769 --> 00:29:26,279
some of these sightings could be a

724
00:29:29,029 --> 00:29:27,779
result of things that people are

725
00:29:31,310 --> 00:29:29,039
experiencing within different

726
00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:31,320
intersections of time all together real

727
00:29:36,190 --> 00:29:33,480
as this conversation we're having right

728
00:29:39,289 --> 00:29:36,200
now not necessarily or not always

729
00:29:42,409 --> 00:29:39,299
extraterrestrial but actual but

730
00:29:45,710 --> 00:29:42,419
time-based dimensionally based versus

731
00:29:49,970 --> 00:29:45,720
what we refer to as as extraterrestrial

732
00:29:52,669 --> 00:29:49,980
and can that affect amp up uh if if a

733
00:29:56,090 --> 00:29:52,679
given pool of people

734
00:29:57,409 --> 00:29:56,100
are engaged or sympathetic these are

735
00:29:59,930 --> 00:29:57,419
interesting questions

736
00:30:02,630 --> 00:29:59,940
great well and that brings to mind you

737
00:30:04,610 --> 00:30:02,640
know that famous cover of passport to

738
00:30:07,250 --> 00:30:04,620
Magonia you know these different masks

739
00:30:10,130 --> 00:30:07,260
that the alien wears throughout history

740
00:30:12,769 --> 00:30:10,140
and culture and uh I know both of you

741
00:30:16,250 --> 00:30:12,779
are I hate using the word students but

742
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,260
definitely uh I guess fans maybe of Mr

743
00:30:20,450 --> 00:30:18,480
Jacques valet Mitch I know you've spoken

744
00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,460
to him on many occasions Sarah and I had

745
00:30:24,409 --> 00:30:22,559
a conversation about him in the past on

746
00:30:27,590 --> 00:30:24,419
the show as well but I'd love to get

747
00:30:31,549 --> 00:30:27,600
both your thoughts on where does his and

748
00:30:34,730 --> 00:30:31,559
and I use his ufology as kind of a big

749
00:30:37,250 --> 00:30:34,740
sweeping thing where does that land in

750
00:30:39,110 --> 00:30:37,260
terms of you know you have science you

751
00:30:42,350 --> 00:30:39,120
have data you have repeatability when

752
00:30:44,210 --> 00:30:42,360
trying to investigate UFOs and then you

753
00:30:46,310 --> 00:30:44,220
look to the other side and you've got

754
00:30:48,289 --> 00:30:46,320
this whole interdimensional or or

755
00:30:49,190 --> 00:30:48,299
Consciousness aspect to all of it as

756
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:49,200
well

757
00:30:53,269 --> 00:30:51,360
um Sarah I love your thoughts first you

758
00:30:56,149 --> 00:30:53,279
know having really looked into the work

759
00:30:59,090 --> 00:30:56,159
of Jacques valet um what do you think

760
00:31:00,590 --> 00:30:59,100
are we dealing can we can we look at the

761
00:31:04,029 --> 00:31:00,600
UFO phenomenon strictly from a

762
00:31:07,070 --> 00:31:04,039
scientific basis and I guess kind of a

763
00:31:09,409 --> 00:31:07,080
interdimensional or mystical basis um

764
00:31:11,269 --> 00:31:09,419
what do you think well I I mean I'm

765
00:31:13,190 --> 00:31:11,279
going to ask a question about science

766
00:31:14,630 --> 00:31:13,200
later but I mean I certainly think you

767
00:31:16,669 --> 00:31:14,640
can look at all of this from a

768
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:16,679
scientific perspective and I don't think

769
00:31:20,450 --> 00:31:18,240
that it's um

770
00:31:22,730 --> 00:31:20,460
uh I don't think it's wrong to want to

771
00:31:27,169 --> 00:31:22,740
apply like the scientific method to all

772
00:31:29,389 --> 00:31:27,179
of this but it is to me I I think that

773
00:31:30,649 --> 00:31:29,399
some people are very rigid in that they

774
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:30,659
can only because people feel like they

775
00:31:34,310 --> 00:31:32,520
can only have like one ideology about

776
00:31:35,570 --> 00:31:34,320
something and it's like that's it and

777
00:31:37,909 --> 00:31:35,580
because there's this part of it that

778
00:31:39,950 --> 00:31:37,919
cancels out another piece of this belief

779
00:31:42,110 --> 00:31:39,960
system I I can't hold both of them at

780
00:31:44,389 --> 00:31:42,120
the same time and I think that like

781
00:31:45,889 --> 00:31:44,399
we're complicated and we're able to

782
00:31:47,690 --> 00:31:45,899
exist under kind of different many

783
00:31:49,669 --> 00:31:47,700
different paradigms at the same time so

784
00:31:52,190 --> 00:31:49,679
I'm able to accept the scientific method

785
00:31:54,529 --> 00:31:52,200
as valid a lot of the time and then also

786
00:31:56,630 --> 00:31:54,539
see that it has limitations and where

787
00:31:58,070 --> 00:31:56,640
those limitations are other things might

788
00:32:00,889 --> 00:31:58,080
come in

789
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:00,899
um I I so my experience with a lot of

790
00:32:04,070 --> 00:32:02,399
this comes from Spirit work I'm a witch

791
00:32:06,409 --> 00:32:04,080
I'm an occultist I work with Spirits

792
00:32:08,029 --> 00:32:06,419
it's my primary like field of working

793
00:32:10,850 --> 00:32:08,039
with magic like that is how I understand

794
00:32:13,310 --> 00:32:10,860
a lot of magic to work also with mental

795
00:32:14,330 --> 00:32:13,320
stuff as well but I think that I think

796
00:32:16,610 --> 00:32:14,340
that

797
00:32:20,570 --> 00:32:16,620
um it's almost like a way for me to

798
00:32:23,930 --> 00:32:20,580
square the circle right it's like if the

799
00:32:25,610 --> 00:32:23,940
it to me it's actually this it's well

800
00:32:27,590 --> 00:32:25,620
it's a very complicated answer it's a

801
00:32:31,310 --> 00:32:27,600
very simple answer to me almost of like

802
00:32:33,230 --> 00:32:31,320
how do we put Bigfoot and UFOs and

803
00:32:35,450 --> 00:32:33,240
ghosts and spirits and all of this stuff

804
00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:35,460
into one category well it's Spirit

805
00:32:39,169 --> 00:32:37,440
phenomenon and we're just and like

806
00:32:40,970 --> 00:32:39,179
plants and animals have different

807
00:32:43,250 --> 00:32:40,980
species there's different species of

808
00:32:45,710 --> 00:32:43,260
this and it looks differently depending

809
00:32:47,450 --> 00:32:45,720
on region and culture and time and this

810
00:32:48,830 --> 00:32:47,460
kind of thing because maybe they evolve

811
00:32:51,409 --> 00:32:48,840
and change maybe they don't always want

812
00:32:53,870 --> 00:32:51,419
to be perceived they have motives of

813
00:32:56,029 --> 00:32:53,880
their own that we don't we can only kind

814
00:32:59,690 --> 00:32:56,039
of get to but we will never really know

815
00:33:01,669 --> 00:32:59,700
all of their motives right and that to

816
00:33:03,409 --> 00:33:01,679
me is the most kind of straightforward

817
00:33:05,110 --> 00:33:03,419
answer to what we're dealing with and

818
00:33:07,669 --> 00:33:05,120
people might want to call that

819
00:33:10,070 --> 00:33:07,679
interdimensional or

820
00:33:12,049 --> 00:33:10,080
um you know an aggregor or you know

821
00:33:14,149 --> 00:33:12,059
different type of terminology for this I

822
00:33:15,470 --> 00:33:14,159
I kind of see it sort of as the same

823
00:33:18,350 --> 00:33:15,480
thing I don't think that that cancels

824
00:33:20,509 --> 00:33:18,360
out what I'm saying but I um I think

825
00:33:22,850 --> 00:33:20,519
that Jacque Valley's work is the war

826
00:33:25,669 --> 00:33:22,860
work that has corresponded the closest

827
00:33:28,190 --> 00:33:25,679
to my understanding of spirits and how

828
00:33:29,630 --> 00:33:28,200
Spirits work and so I get excited when I

829
00:33:32,630 --> 00:33:29,640
hear him speak and when I've read his

830
00:33:36,730 --> 00:33:32,640
work because it is the it's

831
00:33:41,289 --> 00:33:36,740
putting into I think a more I you know

832
00:33:45,470 --> 00:33:41,299
intellectually rigorous and uh

833
00:33:47,509 --> 00:33:45,480
scientific language around spirits that

834
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:47,519
is very difficult to do and I think that

835
00:33:51,049 --> 00:33:49,679
that is why I'm a big fan of his work in

836
00:33:52,909 --> 00:33:51,059
particular

837
00:33:54,409 --> 00:33:52,919
um I don't know if that makes sense but

838
00:33:56,210 --> 00:33:54,419
that's because maybe this is going into

839
00:33:58,549 --> 00:33:56,220
a different category of like what I

840
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:58,559
think UFOs are but I think that that is

841
00:34:02,630 --> 00:34:00,720
to me the um

842
00:34:05,289 --> 00:34:02,640
the simplest way to kind of you know

843
00:34:07,370 --> 00:34:05,299
obviously Spirits have a material

844
00:34:09,349 --> 00:34:07,380
interaction because otherwise what are

845
00:34:10,970 --> 00:34:09,359
we doing here like why why are we doing

846
00:34:13,310 --> 00:34:10,980
magic with them unless there's some sort

847
00:34:15,829 --> 00:34:13,320
of material effect at a certain point

848
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:15,839
but they obviously do not exist in the

849
00:34:19,609 --> 00:34:17,280
material world or else we could have

850
00:34:21,230 --> 00:34:19,619
measured them at this point right and

851
00:34:22,490 --> 00:34:21,240
it's that feedback loop that I think is

852
00:34:24,589 --> 00:34:22,500
very interesting and that his work

853
00:34:26,629 --> 00:34:24,599
touches on so much

854
00:34:29,089 --> 00:34:26,639
interesting yeah Mitch what do you make

855
00:34:30,889 --> 00:34:29,099
of Jacques Valley's work oh it's been a

856
00:34:33,470 --> 00:34:30,899
huge influence on me I don't know that

857
00:34:35,690 --> 00:34:33,480
jock was absolutely the first person to

858
00:34:38,450 --> 00:34:35,700
propose the interdimensional thesis for

859
00:34:41,329 --> 00:34:38,460
UFOs but he certainly put it out there

860
00:34:43,369 --> 00:34:41,339
in a way that made it part of the

861
00:34:45,109 --> 00:34:43,379
discussion made a part of the exchange

862
00:34:48,109 --> 00:34:45,119
and

863
00:34:52,849 --> 00:34:48,119
I I find it alluring uh I find it

864
00:34:58,670 --> 00:34:55,669
part of the reason why these

865
00:35:02,270 --> 00:34:58,680
um queries are are can be so confounding

866
00:35:03,829 --> 00:35:02,280
is because we don't we can track

867
00:35:05,930 --> 00:35:03,839
phenomena

868
00:35:08,630 --> 00:35:05,940
um we can even statistically map it but

869
00:35:10,550 --> 00:35:08,640
we don't have a sense of causes we don't

870
00:35:11,510 --> 00:35:10,560
know what pipes these things are moving

871
00:35:13,010 --> 00:35:11,520
through

872
00:35:17,030 --> 00:35:13,020
and

873
00:35:20,870 --> 00:35:17,040
so right now because of a convergence of

874
00:35:24,109 --> 00:35:20,880
ideas emerging from uh

875
00:35:26,210 --> 00:35:24,119
quantum theory uh Bell's theorem which

876
00:35:28,849 --> 00:35:26,220
measures the effects that far away

877
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:28,859
objects elicit on one another and I

878
00:35:32,510 --> 00:35:30,720
would also say important findings that

879
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:32,520
have come out of academic psychical

880
00:35:37,849 --> 00:35:35,520
research theorists are trying to model

881
00:35:40,310 --> 00:35:37,859
concepts of reality that might explain

882
00:35:42,109 --> 00:35:40,320
what's going on and so one of those

883
00:35:43,849 --> 00:35:42,119
models for example is string theory

884
00:35:45,650 --> 00:35:43,859
where everything is moving on these

885
00:35:47,270 --> 00:35:45,660
undulating strings and that there are

886
00:35:49,550 --> 00:35:47,280
different intersections of time which

887
00:35:51,950 --> 00:35:49,560
actually comports really well with

888
00:35:53,870 --> 00:35:51,960
quantum mechanics and stuff that's going

889
00:35:56,930 --> 00:35:53,880
on in another dimension or intersection

890
00:35:58,910 --> 00:35:56,940
of time that we don't normally see might

891
00:36:01,730 --> 00:35:58,920
be affecting stuff that goes on in the

892
00:36:04,430 --> 00:36:01,740
world that we do normally see and and so

893
00:36:05,210 --> 00:36:04,440
then when you're considering UFOs one of

894
00:36:15,410 --> 00:36:05,220
the

895
00:36:17,510 --> 00:36:15,420
across such unfathomable distances and

896
00:36:19,430 --> 00:36:17,520
we have some some models for that as

897
00:36:22,670 --> 00:36:19,440
well like so-called Cosmic wormholes

898
00:36:25,490 --> 00:36:22,680
bends in space time I personally would

899
00:36:27,770 --> 00:36:25,500
say that we as a human Community have

900
00:36:31,310 --> 00:36:27,780
better theoretical understandings at

901
00:36:33,530 --> 00:36:31,320
this instance and again these are just

902
00:36:35,450 --> 00:36:33,540
concepts of reality not reality itself

903
00:36:37,690 --> 00:36:35,460
it's just efforts to figure out what's

904
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:37,700
going on I think we have better

905
00:36:42,829 --> 00:36:39,440
theoretical models for

906
00:36:45,190 --> 00:36:42,839
inter-dimensionality than we do for

907
00:36:49,430 --> 00:36:45,200
um extraterrestriality in terms of the

908
00:36:52,490 --> 00:36:49,440
time needed to travel these unfathomable

909
00:36:53,930 --> 00:36:52,500
distances even at light speed and

910
00:36:55,430 --> 00:36:53,940
so I just think that the

911
00:36:57,890 --> 00:36:55,440
inter-dimensional model is better

912
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:57,900
developed than maybe the cosmic Wormhole

913
00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:00,720
model and and I think that that's a

914
00:37:05,150 --> 00:37:03,240
central yeah it's a cent Trail

915
00:37:06,890 --> 00:37:05,160
um I had the great pleasure once of

916
00:37:10,190 --> 00:37:06,900
watching Close Encounters of the Third

917
00:37:13,250 --> 00:37:10,200
Kind with Jacques and he is the the

918
00:37:15,349 --> 00:37:13,260
character there's a a French UFO

919
00:37:17,150 --> 00:37:15,359
scientist in the film that's based upon

920
00:37:20,569 --> 00:37:17,160
him we're going to be showing that film

921
00:37:22,190 --> 00:37:20,579
at Anthology film archives and he said

922
00:37:24,950 --> 00:37:22,200
that when he was on the set he told

923
00:37:28,609 --> 00:37:24,960
Spielberg that he favored the

924
00:37:29,990 --> 00:37:28,619
Extraterrestrial uh thesis I'm sorry the

925
00:37:32,030 --> 00:37:30,000
interdimensional thesis over the

926
00:37:33,530 --> 00:37:32,040
Extraterrestrial thesis and Spielberg

927
00:37:34,550 --> 00:37:33,540
agreed with him and that was a long time

928
00:37:37,370 --> 00:37:34,560
ago and I would say the

929
00:37:39,710 --> 00:37:37,380
inter-dimensional models uh have gotten

930
00:37:41,690 --> 00:37:39,720
better but we're still just on a um

931
00:37:44,569 --> 00:37:41,700
we're on our knees peeking through a

932
00:37:45,890 --> 00:37:44,579
keyhole we we just don't know but I do

933
00:37:48,109 --> 00:37:45,900
think Jacques has pointed in the

934
00:37:50,930 --> 00:37:48,119
direction of something important

935
00:37:54,589 --> 00:37:50,940
yeah absolutely yeah and I love I love

936
00:37:56,089 --> 00:37:54,599
that we can have such differing theories

937
00:37:58,250 --> 00:37:56,099
on what these things could be and there

938
00:38:00,829 --> 00:37:58,260
probably isn't just one answer you know

939
00:38:02,930 --> 00:38:00,839
Sarah said phenomena and I think that's

940
00:38:05,810 --> 00:38:02,940
very important we're clearly not dealing

941
00:38:09,410 --> 00:38:05,820
with one thing whatever UFO a government

942
00:38:11,089 --> 00:38:09,420
coin term exactly exactly right if I may

943
00:38:12,829 --> 00:38:11,099
it's so important to amplify that and

944
00:38:15,349 --> 00:38:12,839
this touches on what Sarah was saying as

945
00:38:18,770 --> 00:38:15,359
well it's really important in the search

946
00:38:20,450 --> 00:38:18,780
to grow comfortable with Paradox uh to

947
00:38:23,390 --> 00:38:20,460
grow comfortable with dangling questions

948
00:38:26,089 --> 00:38:23,400
to be able to sustain a question and not

949
00:38:28,609 --> 00:38:26,099
to get into this thinking of a magic

950
00:38:31,010 --> 00:38:28,619
bullet theory there's just one thing out

951
00:38:32,030 --> 00:38:31,020
there and frankly that's what the some

952
00:38:35,210 --> 00:38:32,040
of the

953
00:38:38,569 --> 00:38:35,220
um lesser Skeptics do you know they they

954
00:38:39,890 --> 00:38:38,579
find one potential solution and they're

955
00:38:42,170 --> 00:38:39,900
certain that they found the whole thing

956
00:38:44,750 --> 00:38:42,180
so the placebo effect for example is

957
00:38:47,390 --> 00:38:44,760
nothing but endorphins being released

958
00:38:50,510 --> 00:38:47,400
into the body or nothing but

959
00:38:52,370 --> 00:38:50,520
um you know immunobusting enzymes being

960
00:38:54,230 --> 00:38:52,380
released or something and and all that

961
00:38:55,910 --> 00:38:54,240
may be true but that could be one of a

962
00:38:58,790 --> 00:38:55,920
dozen things that are going on or that

963
00:39:00,770 --> 00:38:58,800
could be what the prayer appeal uh looks

964
00:39:02,690 --> 00:39:00,780
like what the spiritual appeal or what

965
00:39:04,550 --> 00:39:02,700
hopeful expectancy looks like in the

966
00:39:07,550 --> 00:39:04,560
body and it might look like 12 other

967
00:39:10,490 --> 00:39:07,560
things too so you know we we really get

968
00:39:12,109 --> 00:39:10,500
trained in the Western World to think in

969
00:39:15,050 --> 00:39:12,119
terms of opposites there's true and

970
00:39:17,690 --> 00:39:15,060
there's false and to a degree that

971
00:39:20,990 --> 00:39:17,700
really comes out of Aristotle and that

972
00:39:23,569 --> 00:39:21,000
can be incredibly restraining

973
00:39:25,849 --> 00:39:23,579
um because there are very likely a

974
00:39:28,970 --> 00:39:25,859
complexity of factors going on in any

975
00:39:31,490 --> 00:39:28,980
situation and including intimate

976
00:39:33,829 --> 00:39:31,500
situations and the wish to find that

977
00:39:37,190 --> 00:39:33,839
magic bullet is kind of a cultural habit

978
00:39:39,470 --> 00:39:37,200
that we're in the groove of yeah I

979
00:39:43,250 --> 00:39:39,480
wrestle every day I you know I've been

980
00:39:44,750 --> 00:39:43,260
chasing the UFO for half my life and I

981
00:39:47,450 --> 00:39:44,760
think deep down there's a part of me

982
00:39:49,910 --> 00:39:47,460
that doesn't want to know what it is and

983
00:39:52,010 --> 00:39:49,920
that's not because you know I I enjoyed

984
00:39:54,650 --> 00:39:52,020
the journey yes I don't it's not so much

985
00:39:56,750 --> 00:39:54,660
the destination but I also think you

986
00:39:58,490 --> 00:39:56,760
know if I did get those answers either

987
00:40:00,230 --> 00:39:58,500
I'm not going to like them they're going

988
00:40:02,630 --> 00:40:00,240
to be so far more complex than I'll

989
00:40:03,950 --> 00:40:02,640
never truly understand them or you know

990
00:40:05,930 --> 00:40:03,960
at the end of the day they are just

991
00:40:08,089 --> 00:40:05,940
going to be aliens from another planet

992
00:40:11,210 --> 00:40:08,099
and that's going to be while exciting

993
00:40:14,089 --> 00:40:11,220
and obviously Paradigm shifting um in

994
00:40:16,790 --> 00:40:14,099
some senses it won't be as complex and

995
00:40:19,069 --> 00:40:16,800
as exciting as I had hoped so I I do

996
00:40:21,290 --> 00:40:19,079
wrestle with that a lot

997
00:40:24,710 --> 00:40:21,300
um well I want to kind of open the floor

998
00:40:27,589 --> 00:40:24,720
Sarah to you since we I'm here to talk

999
00:40:30,290 --> 00:40:27,599
UFOs with Mitch but there's so much more

1000
00:40:31,730 --> 00:40:30,300
to this book on certain places

1001
00:40:34,130 --> 00:40:31,740
um we literally just talked about the

1002
00:40:36,050 --> 00:40:34,140
first chapter for about an hour so we

1003
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,060
will move on from that guys you can get

1004
00:40:41,089 --> 00:40:38,400
the book to read more about the UFO

1005
00:40:43,609 --> 00:40:41,099
question in Mitch's uh perception but um

1006
00:40:44,329 --> 00:40:43,619
Sarah what do you want to ask at this

1007
00:40:46,670 --> 00:40:44,339
point

1008
00:40:49,370 --> 00:40:46,680
um with Mitch anything please I've got

1009
00:40:51,109 --> 00:40:49,380
I've got so many questions is okay one

1010
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:51,119
of the things that you say in the book

1011
00:40:56,210 --> 00:40:52,800
and also in your the lecture that you

1012
00:40:59,329 --> 00:40:56,220
gave is that we we lack a good skeptical

1013
00:41:01,069 --> 00:40:59,339
apparatus for this type of phenomenon

1014
00:41:03,290 --> 00:41:01,079
and for I mean for a lot of things too

1015
00:41:05,089 --> 00:41:03,300
like I I think about this a lot like

1016
00:41:06,890 --> 00:41:05,099
coming from The World of Magic I

1017
00:41:08,690 --> 00:41:06,900
sometimes feel like I like when I'm with

1018
00:41:10,130 --> 00:41:08,700
family and we passed you know like a

1019
00:41:11,630 --> 00:41:10,140
tarot card to read in the reader in the

1020
00:41:13,730 --> 00:41:11,640
street I'm like I don't know them don't

1021
00:41:15,829 --> 00:41:13,740
like this is a scam blah blah blah but

1022
00:41:17,329 --> 00:41:15,839
then like I will if I if a friend of

1023
00:41:19,010 --> 00:41:17,339
mine or someone that I know gives me a

1024
00:41:20,329 --> 00:41:19,020
reading like I believe that uh with the

1025
00:41:22,190 --> 00:41:20,339
utmost certainty right like you know so

1026
00:41:24,230 --> 00:41:22,200
it's like I there's a skepticism that

1027
00:41:26,990 --> 00:41:24,240
comes from me because I I know what I'm

1028
00:41:28,490 --> 00:41:27,000
talking about so I could smell that and

1029
00:41:30,530 --> 00:41:28,500
it doesn't come from the skeptical

1030
00:41:32,210 --> 00:41:30,540
Community right because they don't it

1031
00:41:33,710 --> 00:41:32,220
doesn't seem like they even really have

1032
00:41:35,390 --> 00:41:33,720
a desire to know what they're talking

1033
00:41:38,030 --> 00:41:35,400
about when we talk about

1034
00:41:40,910 --> 00:41:38,040
UFOs or magic or astrology or any of

1035
00:41:43,250 --> 00:41:40,920
these things new thought and I was gonna

1036
00:41:45,349 --> 00:41:43,260
ask you if we lack a good skeptical

1037
00:41:47,510 --> 00:41:45,359
apparatus what would you what would a

1038
00:41:51,349 --> 00:41:47,520
good skeptical apparatus look like to

1039
00:41:55,310 --> 00:41:51,359
you wow that's a wonderful question

1040
00:41:58,810 --> 00:41:55,320
a good skeptical apparatus would consist

1041
00:42:02,030 --> 00:41:58,820
of people who have dedicated

1042
00:42:04,069 --> 00:42:02,040
commensurate amounts of time to the

1043
00:42:07,130 --> 00:42:04,079
phenomena that they're writing or

1044
00:42:10,130 --> 00:42:07,140
speaking about as the participants

1045
00:42:12,790 --> 00:42:10,140
themselves and that's a really really

1046
00:42:16,730 --> 00:42:12,800
tough thing to do but people do do it

1047
00:42:22,310 --> 00:42:16,740
there are Skeptics of certain ideas who

1048
00:42:26,210 --> 00:42:22,320
are as deeply versed in uh their their

1049
00:42:27,230 --> 00:42:26,220
target subjects as the participants

1050
00:42:29,930 --> 00:42:27,240
um

1051
00:42:32,329 --> 00:42:29,940
there's a philosopher of science Paul

1052
00:42:37,069 --> 00:42:32,339
fearabend and he pointed out that

1053
00:42:39,530 --> 00:42:37,079
horrible as it was when the first uh

1054
00:42:41,750 --> 00:42:39,540
tracts of demonology were getting

1055
00:42:44,950 --> 00:42:41,760
written by Church authorities in the

1056
00:42:47,990 --> 00:42:44,960
medieval period and horrible and

1057
00:42:50,210 --> 00:42:48,000
catastrophic as the consequences of

1058
00:42:55,849 --> 00:42:50,220
these tracts were because they were used

1059
00:42:59,569 --> 00:42:55,859
to Target and torment accused witches

1060
00:43:02,630 --> 00:42:59,579
um those people were it had to be said

1061
00:43:05,569 --> 00:43:02,640
deeply deeply ensconced and immersed in

1062
00:43:10,490 --> 00:43:05,579
what they're writing about and the the

1063
00:43:12,290 --> 00:43:10,500
implications were tragic but by contrast

1064
00:43:16,190 --> 00:43:12,300
today

1065
00:43:17,690 --> 00:43:16,200
um any given scientist uh who chooses to

1066
00:43:19,970 --> 00:43:17,700
speak on the topic and he or she

1067
00:43:22,730 --> 00:43:19,980
certainly doesn't need to doesn't know

1068
00:43:25,430 --> 00:43:22,740
the first thing about astrology it's

1069
00:43:28,010 --> 00:43:25,440
history potential principles even

1070
00:43:30,589 --> 00:43:28,020
statistical tables that have been uh

1071
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:30,599
attempted to to correlate some of its

1072
00:43:35,750 --> 00:43:32,880
principles to people's lives and so on

1073
00:43:37,849 --> 00:43:35,760
and so forth and there's an abiding

1074
00:43:40,250 --> 00:43:37,859
ignorance within a lot of the skeptical

1075
00:43:42,650 --> 00:43:40,260
Community today

1076
00:43:45,650 --> 00:43:42,660
um and that abiding ignorance is a

1077
00:43:48,650 --> 00:43:45,660
vacuum that gets filled with

1078
00:43:51,050 --> 00:43:48,660
um sarcasm rhetorical questions sneering

1079
00:43:54,890 --> 00:43:51,060
sleight of hand changing of subject

1080
00:43:57,290 --> 00:43:54,900
indirect uh addressing of issues and

1081
00:43:59,510 --> 00:43:57,300
it's just a um it's a piss-poor

1082
00:44:02,150 --> 00:43:59,520
intellectual culture in many respects

1083
00:44:03,470 --> 00:44:02,160
and it could be so much better so if

1084
00:44:06,530 --> 00:44:03,480
they really cared about the subject

1085
00:44:08,930 --> 00:44:06,540
which they don't have to uh it would

1086
00:44:11,450 --> 00:44:08,940
first and foremost require immersion

1087
00:44:13,849 --> 00:44:11,460
hmm what about the flip side of that

1088
00:44:16,730 --> 00:44:13,859
[\h__\h] when you have the danger of belief

1089
00:44:19,250 --> 00:44:16,740
uh getting mixed into all this you know

1090
00:44:20,870 --> 00:44:19,260
I I spend half my life interviewing

1091
00:44:22,970 --> 00:44:20,880
people who've seen UFOs who've claimed

1092
00:44:25,550 --> 00:44:22,980
abduction experiences and do I believe

1093
00:44:27,890 --> 00:44:25,560
every one of them no I I don't and I've

1094
00:44:31,490 --> 00:44:27,900
made that very clear I'm very open about

1095
00:44:33,710 --> 00:44:31,500
that but there is a core mystery going

1096
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:33,720
on you can't account for every one of

1097
00:44:37,730 --> 00:44:35,760
these people having a traumatic

1098
00:44:39,829 --> 00:44:37,740
experience as a child to explain away

1099
00:44:42,890 --> 00:44:39,839
their their abduction experience or

1100
00:44:45,170 --> 00:44:42,900
sleep paralysis or misidentification of

1101
00:44:48,829 --> 00:44:45,180
something in the sky but then you have

1102
00:44:50,630 --> 00:44:48,839
these kind of cult-like personalities

1103
00:44:53,089 --> 00:44:50,640
crop up in these fields to take

1104
00:44:55,130 --> 00:44:53,099
advantage of people as well or you just

1105
00:44:57,470 --> 00:44:55,140
have fantasy-prone people enabling one

1106
00:44:59,569 --> 00:44:57,480
another and I struggle with that every

1107
00:45:01,490 --> 00:44:59,579
day being involved in this topic and

1108
00:45:04,130 --> 00:45:01,500
kind of being a voice for it like I try

1109
00:45:06,589 --> 00:45:04,140
to be as respectful of those who give me

1110
00:45:09,470 --> 00:45:06,599
their stories and push my own personal

1111
00:45:11,569 --> 00:45:09,480
beliefs and judgment aside but at the

1112
00:45:13,550 --> 00:45:11,579
end of the day I'm like oh man like am I

1113
00:45:15,770 --> 00:45:13,560
adding to a problem that shouldn't be

1114
00:45:17,450 --> 00:45:15,780
there or should that problem be there if

1115
00:45:19,430 --> 00:45:17,460
that makes any sense I don't know what

1116
00:45:21,349 --> 00:45:19,440
do you think yeah it's hard to avoid and

1117
00:45:25,130 --> 00:45:21,359
I try to watch for that of myself of

1118
00:45:27,770 --> 00:45:25,140
course uh probably very fitfully uh we

1119
00:45:31,069 --> 00:45:27,780
tend to arrive at convictions through an

1120
00:45:32,990 --> 00:45:31,079
emotional process and once the emotions

1121
00:45:35,270 --> 00:45:33,000
are cemented

1122
00:45:38,030 --> 00:45:35,280
um unless that individual has something

1123
00:45:40,970 --> 00:45:38,040
really dramatic and traumatizing happen

1124
00:45:44,329 --> 00:45:40,980
to him or her uh it almost never gets

1125
00:45:46,010 --> 00:45:44,339
dislodged and very frequently if a

1126
00:45:47,050 --> 00:45:46,020
person who's possessive and emotional

1127
00:45:50,030 --> 00:45:47,060
conviction

1128
00:45:51,829 --> 00:45:50,040
experiences some sort of countervailing

1129
00:45:53,329 --> 00:45:51,839
trauma they usually slide all the way to

1130
00:45:55,730 --> 00:45:53,339
the other side which is why you have

1131
00:45:57,589 --> 00:45:55,740
like a Marxist becoming a conservative

1132
00:46:00,650 --> 00:45:57,599
and it just makes no sense at all I

1133
00:46:02,690 --> 00:46:00,660
remember once I was talking to

1134
00:46:05,870 --> 00:46:02,700
um the conservative activist David

1135
00:46:08,030 --> 00:46:05,880
Horowitz who I'm not related to and uh

1136
00:46:09,950 --> 00:46:08,040
David was a member of the Black Panthers

1137
00:46:11,510 --> 00:46:09,960
and then he became a hardcore Reagan

1138
00:46:13,970 --> 00:46:11,520
supporter and now he's a hardcore Trump

1139
00:46:15,349 --> 00:46:13,980
supporter and I said to him David I'm

1140
00:46:18,050 --> 00:46:15,359
trying to understand your thought

1141
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:18,060
process wasn't there ever a time when

1142
00:46:21,530 --> 00:46:19,920
you were just kind of in the middle like

1143
00:46:23,510 --> 00:46:21,540
you decided the Black Panthers weren't

1144
00:46:26,030 --> 00:46:23,520
for you and you sort of were like

1145
00:46:29,089 --> 00:46:26,040
supporting Walter Mondale or something

1146
00:46:31,130 --> 00:46:29,099
and he said I didn't give a [\h__\h] about

1147
00:46:34,069 --> 00:46:31,140
Walter Mondale I want

1148
00:46:38,210 --> 00:46:36,650
I but there had to have been like a

1149
00:46:40,490 --> 00:46:38,220
weekend or something where you were

1150
00:46:42,050 --> 00:46:40,500
Midstream and I I couldn't get through

1151
00:46:45,710 --> 00:46:42,060
to him you know I really couldn't get

1152
00:46:47,450 --> 00:46:45,720
through to him and we all tend to be

1153
00:46:49,970 --> 00:46:47,460
very emotional about our points of view

1154
00:46:53,690 --> 00:46:49,980
almost like lovers in a certain way you

1155
00:46:55,609 --> 00:46:53,700
know we have a a point of advocacy maybe

1156
00:46:58,010 --> 00:46:55,619
something traumatic happens where that

1157
00:46:59,809 --> 00:46:58,020
point of advocacy gets dispelled and

1158
00:47:01,910 --> 00:46:59,819
then we go all the way over to the other

1159
00:47:03,890 --> 00:47:01,920
side absolutely convinced well if Karl

1160
00:47:06,170 --> 00:47:03,900
Marx was wrong then Ein Rand must be

1161
00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:06,180
right and it's like what if they both

1162
00:47:10,130 --> 00:47:08,160
had problems but you know you could take

1163
00:47:13,430 --> 00:47:10,140
this from this guy and this from her and

1164
00:47:15,290 --> 00:47:13,440
it is really a conundrum of human nature

1165
00:47:17,990 --> 00:47:15,300
it's a terrible conundrum of human

1166
00:47:20,630 --> 00:47:18,000
nature and I think um one of my

1167
00:47:22,550 --> 00:47:20,640
intellectual Heroes is JB Ryan who with

1168
00:47:24,829 --> 00:47:22,560
his wife Louisa opened the

1169
00:47:28,190 --> 00:47:24,839
parapsychology lab at Duke University in

1170
00:47:31,370 --> 00:47:28,200
the early 30s and JB worked really hard

1171
00:47:33,589 --> 00:47:31,380
on himself to try to elude that

1172
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:33,599
emotionalism that was also part of the

1173
00:47:36,290 --> 00:47:34,319
reason

1174
00:47:38,690 --> 00:47:36,300
and I'm critical of him for this to some

1175
00:47:41,809 --> 00:47:38,700
extent it was part of the reason why JB

1176
00:47:44,210 --> 00:47:41,819
although he amassed enormous statistical

1177
00:47:48,410 --> 00:47:44,220
evidence to demonstrate the ESP effect

1178
00:47:50,569 --> 00:47:48,420
he resisted theorizing causes and and he

1179
00:47:53,569 --> 00:47:50,579
never assembled a theory and that might

1180
00:47:55,190 --> 00:47:53,579
have been a mistake because our

1181
00:47:57,109 --> 00:47:55,200
scientific culture if you want to

1182
00:47:59,450 --> 00:47:57,119
participate in it really demands

1183
00:48:01,370 --> 00:47:59,460
theories you know what's the cause how's

1184
00:48:04,849 --> 00:48:01,380
it traveling where's the path where's

1185
00:48:06,230 --> 00:48:04,859
the pipes and and he resisted doing that

1186
00:48:07,849 --> 00:48:06,240
because he didn't want to extrapolate

1187
00:48:10,309 --> 00:48:07,859
from his data and he didn't want to get

1188
00:48:12,829 --> 00:48:10,319
into this kind of believer category so

1189
00:48:14,450 --> 00:48:12,839
much as he wanted to document things

1190
00:48:16,970 --> 00:48:14,460
that occurred

1191
00:48:19,130 --> 00:48:16,980
and and and that may have been a mistake

1192
00:48:21,550 --> 00:48:19,140
but it grew partly out of a virtue which

1193
00:48:24,109 --> 00:48:21,560
is that he was trying to avoid this

1194
00:48:26,630 --> 00:48:24,119
Orthodoxy and I I have to be really

1195
00:48:28,309 --> 00:48:26,640
careful about it myself

1196
00:48:29,750 --> 00:48:28,319
um it's hard to say it's easier to see

1197
00:48:32,840 --> 00:48:29,760
in other people obviously than it isn't

1198
00:48:37,309 --> 00:48:34,569
[Music]

1199
00:48:40,069 --> 00:48:37,319
the somewhere in the skies podcast is

1200
00:48:42,170 --> 00:48:40,079
free to listen to every week but if you

1201
00:48:45,050 --> 00:48:42,180
would like to help support the show we

1202
00:48:46,670 --> 00:48:45,060
have a very active patreon page where

1203
00:48:49,250 --> 00:48:46,680
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1204
00:48:52,430 --> 00:48:49,260
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1205
00:48:55,670 --> 00:48:52,440
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1206
00:48:58,370 --> 00:48:55,680
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1207
00:49:01,609 --> 00:48:58,380
questions your support truly makes the

1208
00:49:04,870 --> 00:49:01,619
show continue and grow so to learn more

1209
00:49:11,569 --> 00:49:04,880
and to join visit patreon.com

1210
00:49:17,329 --> 00:49:14,050
foreign

1211
00:49:19,069 --> 00:49:17,339
I wanted to ask also and this is kind of

1212
00:49:21,349 --> 00:49:19,079
I have my own ideas about this question

1213
00:49:23,750 --> 00:49:21,359
but I think it's a kind of series of

1214
00:49:25,550 --> 00:49:23,760
questions but I think it's good to just

1215
00:49:27,530 --> 00:49:25,560
like have it out there like have this

1216
00:49:29,809 --> 00:49:27,540
like have almost a sound bite out there

1217
00:49:32,390 --> 00:49:29,819
I don't know but do you think that

1218
00:49:33,589 --> 00:49:32,400
people in the skeptical Community are

1219
00:49:35,510 --> 00:49:33,599
dedicated because they're certainly

1220
00:49:37,790 --> 00:49:35,520
they're very dedicated right do you

1221
00:49:40,250 --> 00:49:37,800
think that it is a dedication to science

1222
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:40,260
or materialism

1223
00:49:44,030 --> 00:49:42,960
is there a difference and if there is a

1224
00:49:46,490 --> 00:49:44,040
difference what is that difference

1225
00:49:48,109 --> 00:49:46,500
that's a great question I would say

1226
00:49:50,210 --> 00:49:48,119
certainly there is a difference you know

1227
00:49:53,569 --> 00:49:50,220
science is really just a method it seeks

1228
00:49:55,609 --> 00:49:53,579
replicability uh materialism is a

1229
00:49:58,010 --> 00:49:55,619
philosophical belief that matter creates

1230
00:50:02,150 --> 00:49:58,020
itself that everything is motor skill

1231
00:50:04,130 --> 00:50:02,160
cognition uh chemical biologic as we

1232
00:50:06,170 --> 00:50:04,140
currently understand those terms and

1233
00:50:08,569 --> 00:50:06,180
everything occurs within this box of

1234
00:50:10,910 --> 00:50:08,579
Newtonian physics and if there are

1235
00:50:13,370 --> 00:50:10,920
exceptions to that such as we see in

1236
00:50:14,930 --> 00:50:13,380
quantum mechanics don't get carried away

1237
00:50:17,390 --> 00:50:14,940
with the implications you know there are

1238
00:50:19,790 --> 00:50:17,400
no implications and and and it flies in

1239
00:50:22,309 --> 00:50:19,800
the face of what the founders of quantum

1240
00:50:25,609 --> 00:50:22,319
mechanics themselves believed

1241
00:50:28,670 --> 00:50:25,619
all of whom I would say believed in a

1242
00:50:30,650 --> 00:50:28,680
perceptual basis of reality that

1243
00:50:33,349 --> 00:50:30,660
perception interacts with reality in

1244
00:50:35,210 --> 00:50:33,359
concrete ways in ways that are felt in

1245
00:50:37,370 --> 00:50:35,220
The Human Experience in ways that can be

1246
00:50:38,569 --> 00:50:37,380
documented otherwise you know what are

1247
00:50:40,010 --> 00:50:38,579
we doing measuring all these funny

1248
00:50:43,130 --> 00:50:40,020
little particles that are moving in

1249
00:50:45,650 --> 00:50:43,140
surreal ways you know and so I think

1250
00:50:48,309 --> 00:50:45,660
Skeptics tend to start out with a

1251
00:50:51,349 --> 00:50:48,319
materialist basis and

1252
00:50:52,970 --> 00:50:51,359
Injustice to them I start out with a

1253
00:50:55,730 --> 00:50:52,980
spiritual basis and I Define

1254
00:50:58,069 --> 00:50:55,740
spirituality as extra physicality I've

1255
00:51:00,109 --> 00:50:58,079
believed in extra physicality ever since

1256
00:51:01,849 --> 00:51:00,119
I've been a kid so it stands to reason

1257
00:51:04,250 --> 00:51:01,859
that when you believe something you go

1258
00:51:06,230 --> 00:51:04,260
off looking for evidence for it

1259
00:51:07,790 --> 00:51:06,240
depending on your mindset some people

1260
00:51:10,609 --> 00:51:07,800
are less interested in that some people

1261
00:51:13,309 --> 00:51:10,619
more I'm sort of an Evidence hound and

1262
00:51:15,109 --> 00:51:13,319
and likewise the materialist goes off

1263
00:51:17,089 --> 00:51:15,119
looking for evidence of his or her own

1264
00:51:18,710 --> 00:51:17,099
mindset the problem with the

1265
00:51:21,290 --> 00:51:18,720
materialists

1266
00:51:24,349 --> 00:51:21,300
um today as their

1267
00:51:26,450 --> 00:51:24,359
um voice resonates within the skeptical

1268
00:51:29,390 --> 00:51:26,460
Community is first of all they have

1269
00:51:31,130 --> 00:51:29,400
conflated materialism with science and

1270
00:51:33,470 --> 00:51:31,140
for them materialism is a secular

1271
00:51:36,290 --> 00:51:33,480
religion essentially and to question

1272
00:51:38,270 --> 00:51:36,300
that religion is to

1273
00:51:39,770 --> 00:51:38,280
um engender an emotional response that's

1274
00:51:41,870 --> 00:51:39,780
the equivalent of questioning the

1275
00:51:43,250 --> 00:51:41,880
religion of anybody with fundamentalist

1276
00:51:45,290 --> 00:51:43,260
point of view so there's a lot of

1277
00:51:47,630 --> 00:51:45,300
sentiment and there's a lot of emotion

1278
00:51:49,430 --> 00:51:47,640
and there's a lot of reactivity within

1279
00:51:54,170 --> 00:51:49,440
the

1280
00:51:56,690 --> 00:51:54,180
um Skeptics uh uh uh Circle and it's

1281
00:51:58,630 --> 00:51:56,700
it's it's it's almost all emotion

1282
00:52:01,130 --> 00:51:58,640
because when you get into these debates

1283
00:52:03,049 --> 00:52:01,140
they will just flip over the chessboard

1284
00:52:05,510 --> 00:52:03,059
if the debate is going against them it

1285
00:52:07,309 --> 00:52:05,520
doesn't matter if you find an area of

1286
00:52:09,770 --> 00:52:07,319
parapsychology that they agree with you

1287
00:52:12,290 --> 00:52:09,780
on one day the next day they'll reverse

1288
00:52:14,390 --> 00:52:12,300
themselves uh once they get rehabituated

1289
00:52:16,490 --> 00:52:14,400
back into their circle on social media

1290
00:52:18,890 --> 00:52:16,500
or whatever it is

1291
00:52:20,809 --> 00:52:18,900
um and it it's impenetrable it's just an

1292
00:52:24,589 --> 00:52:20,819
emotional dedication to winning a debate

1293
00:52:26,829 --> 00:52:24,599
it's a contest of the lowest sort and um

1294
00:52:30,470 --> 00:52:26,839
that's that's what one finds frequently

1295
00:52:33,109 --> 00:52:30,480
thank you yeah yeah I love that

1296
00:52:34,609 --> 00:52:33,119
um we have some really good listener

1297
00:52:36,710 --> 00:52:34,619
question Mitch if you're willing to

1298
00:52:39,349 --> 00:52:36,720
stick around for some of these but I'm

1299
00:52:42,290 --> 00:52:39,359
sure cool thank you most of these came

1300
00:52:44,150 --> 00:52:42,300
from our patreon members uh who get

1301
00:52:45,950 --> 00:52:44,160
priority to ask our guest questions so

1302
00:52:48,049 --> 00:52:45,960
we're going to start with those they go

1303
00:52:50,630 --> 00:52:48,059
to the front of the line um I like this

1304
00:52:53,450 --> 00:52:50,640
one Ben on patreon asks this is for

1305
00:52:55,549 --> 00:52:53,460
Mitch and Sarah the more woo corner of

1306
00:52:58,250 --> 00:52:55,559
ufology feels that humanity is headed

1307
00:53:00,650 --> 00:52:58,260
towards a lifting of the vowel as

1308
00:53:03,049 --> 00:53:00,660
science and metaphysics converge because

1309
00:53:05,990 --> 00:53:03,059
of this do either of you think magical

1310
00:53:08,210 --> 00:53:06,000
practice changed at all by that I mean

1311
00:53:10,430 --> 00:53:08,220
have you noticed any change in its

1312
00:53:11,990 --> 00:53:10,440
results or effectiveness

1313
00:53:13,430 --> 00:53:12,000
I'm having this moment where I'm like I

1314
00:53:14,870 --> 00:53:13,440
think that my magical practice has

1315
00:53:16,609 --> 00:53:14,880
gotten better but I think I've just been

1316
00:53:17,809 --> 00:53:16,619
doing it for a while and I've gotten

1317
00:53:20,390 --> 00:53:17,819
better at it because I've been doing it

1318
00:53:23,089 --> 00:53:20,400
for a while so maybe uh but now I'm like

1319
00:53:24,290 --> 00:53:23,099
did something happen like does something

1320
00:53:25,670 --> 00:53:24,300
happen and maybe I'm getting better for

1321
00:53:28,130 --> 00:53:25,680
some other reason

1322
00:53:29,450 --> 00:53:28,140
um no I mean I I mean I I will say

1323
00:53:31,250 --> 00:53:29,460
personally I feel like I've gotten

1324
00:53:32,990 --> 00:53:31,260
better at Magic over the years and I've

1325
00:53:35,210 --> 00:53:33,000
and by better I mean I think I've come

1326
00:53:36,410 --> 00:53:35,220
to a better internal understanding of it

1327
00:53:38,870 --> 00:53:36,420
and I think I've witnessed better

1328
00:53:40,970 --> 00:53:38,880
results in my life but it's I think I've

1329
00:53:42,650 --> 00:53:40,980
just been practicing it and so it's you

1330
00:53:44,150 --> 00:53:42,660
know like like an athlete or a musician

1331
00:53:45,770 --> 00:53:44,160
or something like that you get better at

1332
00:53:47,630 --> 00:53:45,780
something where you practice it and so

1333
00:53:49,370 --> 00:53:47,640
I've you know you learn you learn what

1334
00:53:52,190 --> 00:53:49,380
things work for you and what don't and

1335
00:53:53,690 --> 00:53:52,200
that kind of thing and so I I can't

1336
00:53:58,010 --> 00:53:53,700
speak to that

1337
00:53:59,210 --> 00:53:58,020
and what it and when it comes to other

1338
00:54:01,609 --> 00:53:59,220
people that I know who've been

1339
00:54:03,650 --> 00:54:01,619
practicing magic I haven't heard

1340
00:54:05,030 --> 00:54:03,660
you know people going like oh my God I

1341
00:54:05,990 --> 00:54:05,040
like summed a demon last night you don't

1342
00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:06,000
have it I haven't heard anything crazy

1343
00:54:11,089 --> 00:54:09,720
like that but I um I I do want to just

1344
00:54:13,370 --> 00:54:11,099
touch on the whole like lifting of the

1345
00:54:15,470 --> 00:54:13,380
veil thing because I I get a little bit

1346
00:54:17,390 --> 00:54:15,480
skeptical when people say um you know

1347
00:54:18,650 --> 00:54:17,400
we're about to come into a time of a

1348
00:54:20,809 --> 00:54:18,660
great Consciousness shift and we're

1349
00:54:22,609 --> 00:54:20,819
about to you know the the we're the

1350
00:54:24,829 --> 00:54:22,619
revolution is around the corner or like

1351
00:54:26,809 --> 00:54:24,839
this this kind of thing because I I

1352
00:54:28,130 --> 00:54:26,819
think it's kind of not things don't

1353
00:54:29,750 --> 00:54:28,140
really happen that way in history things

1354
00:54:31,490 --> 00:54:29,760
don't suddenly like happen it's that the

1355
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:31,500
conditions become right for something to

1356
00:54:35,210 --> 00:54:32,880
happen and then they either do or they

1357
00:54:36,650 --> 00:54:35,220
don't like something Sparks that off or

1358
00:54:38,450 --> 00:54:36,660
it doesn't right

1359
00:54:39,829 --> 00:54:38,460
um and the conditions for one thing or

1360
00:54:41,089 --> 00:54:39,839
another occurring kind of ebb and Wayne

1361
00:54:44,750 --> 00:54:41,099
Right

1362
00:54:46,309 --> 00:54:44,760
um and I think that the idea itself of

1363
00:54:47,870 --> 00:54:46,319
the veil like we're in this we're still

1364
00:54:49,730 --> 00:54:47,880
kind of in Halloween time so we can talk

1365
00:54:52,549 --> 00:54:49,740
about this but the idea of the veil is a

1366
00:54:56,270 --> 00:54:52,559
kind of 19th century idea uh the idea of

1367
00:54:58,190 --> 00:54:56,280
like a separation between our world and

1368
00:55:00,109 --> 00:54:58,200
the next and that there's this thin

1369
00:55:02,030 --> 00:55:00,119
thing that that separates that and it's

1370
00:55:03,650 --> 00:55:02,040
kind of a Christian idea right this idea

1371
00:55:05,510 --> 00:55:03,660
of like God is up in the heavens and

1372
00:55:07,190 --> 00:55:05,520
we're down here and there's like the

1373
00:55:09,530 --> 00:55:07,200
material world is here and the spiritual

1374
00:55:11,809 --> 00:55:09,540
world is up there and

1375
00:55:13,670 --> 00:55:11,819
indigenous people both in Europe and

1376
00:55:15,829 --> 00:55:13,680
around the world like you know pagans

1377
00:55:17,630 --> 00:55:15,839
whatever they really didn't see the

1378
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:17,640
world that way like they really saw the

1379
00:55:22,609 --> 00:55:19,440
world as like fully spiritual fully

1380
00:55:25,309 --> 00:55:22,619
material like at once and it was a

1381
00:55:27,589 --> 00:55:25,319
um it's not that the veil became thin at

1382
00:55:29,690 --> 00:55:27,599
certain times of year it may be your

1383
00:55:31,549 --> 00:55:29,700
perceptions of it become better but the

1384
00:55:33,049 --> 00:55:31,559
stuff is always there it's you know the

1385
00:55:34,910 --> 00:55:33,059
it's more that like this half of the

1386
00:55:36,589 --> 00:55:34,920
Year belongs to the Dead one half of the

1387
00:55:39,049 --> 00:55:36,599
Year belongs to the living and like that

1388
00:55:40,849 --> 00:55:39,059
particular cosmology but there's not

1389
00:55:42,770 --> 00:55:40,859
it's um it's an animistic world view

1390
00:55:45,170 --> 00:55:42,780
right so there's no there's no Veil it

1391
00:55:47,450 --> 00:55:45,180
just is and it's

1392
00:55:49,609 --> 00:55:47,460
you know there's there's no so I push

1393
00:55:51,829 --> 00:55:49,619
back on that idea of saying that like

1394
00:55:53,390 --> 00:55:51,839
we're about to like the gates the other

1395
00:55:54,950 --> 00:55:53,400
world are about to be open or not it's

1396
00:55:56,390 --> 00:55:54,960
really just about if we notice it or not

1397
00:55:59,329 --> 00:55:56,400
in my opinion

1398
00:56:01,549 --> 00:55:59,339
um The Observer yeah those are

1399
00:56:04,970 --> 00:56:01,559
incredibly important points and I I

1400
00:56:06,950 --> 00:56:04,980
really like how Sarah framed that

1401
00:56:08,870 --> 00:56:06,960
um one of the things that I get

1402
00:56:11,530 --> 00:56:08,880
concerned about in the search is the

1403
00:56:14,150 --> 00:56:11,540
manner in which Concepts like Veil or

1404
00:56:17,030 --> 00:56:14,160
hierarchical concept Heaven is up here

1405
00:56:18,650 --> 00:56:17,040
and hell is down here and so forth uh or

1406
00:56:21,589 --> 00:56:18,660
even Concepts like attachment

1407
00:56:23,990 --> 00:56:21,599
non-attachment personality Essence we

1408
00:56:25,549 --> 00:56:24,000
get cemented into thinking in these

1409
00:56:27,530 --> 00:56:25,559
conditioned terms that have just come

1410
00:56:30,230 --> 00:56:27,540
down to us that are decisions or

1411
00:56:32,930 --> 00:56:30,240
observations made by somebody else once

1412
00:56:36,230 --> 00:56:32,940
upon a time and we feel like we almost

1413
00:56:38,569 --> 00:56:36,240
have to think or frame our search Within

1414
00:56:40,790 --> 00:56:38,579
These these these terms not that I'm

1415
00:56:42,829 --> 00:56:40,800
inveying against generalities we have to

1416
00:56:45,230 --> 00:56:42,839
use generality sometimes just to speak

1417
00:56:47,569 --> 00:56:45,240
to one another I use metaphors all the

1418
00:56:49,309 --> 00:56:47,579
time I might use the term energy and I'm

1419
00:56:52,609 --> 00:56:49,319
speaking in terms of a metaphor perhaps

1420
00:56:54,910 --> 00:56:52,619
but you know these terms can become a

1421
00:56:57,970 --> 00:56:54,920
kind of

1422
00:57:00,589 --> 00:56:57,980
narrow Corridor you know for all of us

1423
00:57:03,349 --> 00:57:00,599
and one of the things I've really

1424
00:57:06,470 --> 00:57:03,359
attempted in my search recently is to

1425
00:57:08,569 --> 00:57:06,480
dispense with having to think in terms

1426
00:57:11,569 --> 00:57:08,579
of those categories however how low they

1427
00:57:15,109 --> 00:57:11,579
may be by Dent of repetition even very

1428
00:57:17,930 --> 00:57:15,119
ancient categories and

1429
00:57:19,730 --> 00:57:17,940
before we went on we were kind of off

1430
00:57:21,410 --> 00:57:19,740
mic but you're very welcome to use it we

1431
00:57:22,970 --> 00:57:21,420
were talking about an essay in uncertain

1432
00:57:24,890 --> 00:57:22,980
places where I questioned the imperative

1433
00:57:27,349 --> 00:57:24,900
of forgiveness you know that's another

1434
00:57:30,950 --> 00:57:27,359
of these Concepts that by Dent of

1435
00:57:33,170 --> 00:57:30,960
repetition seems to be always fortifying

1436
00:57:35,450 --> 00:57:33,180
and wholesome and helpful for the

1437
00:57:38,210 --> 00:57:35,460
individual and I question that I

1438
00:57:41,450 --> 00:57:38,220
question that in terms of a uh it being

1439
00:57:43,190 --> 00:57:41,460
a milestone or a North star of sorts on

1440
00:57:47,990 --> 00:57:43,200
the path in the search

1441
00:57:49,010 --> 00:57:48,000
and yeah it is very important that we

1442
00:57:50,990 --> 00:57:49,020
not

1443
00:57:52,549 --> 00:57:51,000
again we have to use generality

1444
00:57:53,990 --> 00:57:52,559
sometimes just to communicate with one

1445
00:57:56,089 --> 00:57:54,000
another but we mustn't allow those

1446
00:57:58,250 --> 00:57:56,099
things to become a kind of narrow

1447
00:58:01,490 --> 00:57:58,260
Corridor and in terms of magical

1448
00:58:03,650 --> 00:58:01,500
practice changing I'm very uh dedicated

1449
00:58:06,349 --> 00:58:03,660
to the new thought tradition or positive

1450
00:58:08,089 --> 00:58:06,359
mind metaphysics I I contend that

1451
00:58:10,670 --> 00:58:08,099
thoughts are causative and I think that

1452
00:58:13,010 --> 00:58:10,680
popular literature had an incredible

1453
00:58:15,410 --> 00:58:13,020
Instinct for transpersonal insights that

1454
00:58:17,210 --> 00:58:15,420
didn't become more common until a long

1455
00:58:19,670 --> 00:58:17,220
time later and I go back to that popular

1456
00:58:24,170 --> 00:58:19,680
literature a lot and I really admire

1457
00:58:26,390 --> 00:58:24,180
it's Pioneers I do find though that that

1458
00:58:29,329 --> 00:58:26,400
popular literature too gets us into a

1459
00:58:31,430 --> 00:58:29,339
narrow Corridor which is you have to

1460
00:58:33,770 --> 00:58:31,440
um think from a perspective of having

1461
00:58:35,329 --> 00:58:33,780
already received that which you want you

1462
00:58:37,910 --> 00:58:35,339
have to think from the end you have to

1463
00:58:42,829 --> 00:58:37,920
get into the emotional state before you

1464
00:58:44,930 --> 00:58:42,839
can enact the creative agencies of of

1465
00:58:47,510 --> 00:58:44,940
the mind or the reality selecting

1466
00:58:49,789 --> 00:58:47,520
agencies of the Mind as I would prefer

1467
00:58:51,170 --> 00:58:49,799
to put it in that and that hard back to

1468
00:58:53,210 --> 00:58:51,180
the whole question of the psyche

1469
00:58:56,210 --> 00:58:53,220
traveling among different intersections

1470
00:58:59,030 --> 00:58:56,220
and I thought to myself well the problem

1471
00:59:01,609 --> 00:58:59,040
is uh and this has historically been

1472
00:59:03,970 --> 00:59:01,619
true a person who's staggering under the

1473
00:59:07,730 --> 00:59:03,980
weight of grief or depression or anxiety

1474
00:59:09,349 --> 00:59:07,740
or fear and sometimes that person may

1475
00:59:10,670 --> 00:59:09,359
have very good reason to be feeling

1476
00:59:13,849 --> 00:59:10,680
those things

1477
00:59:15,950 --> 00:59:13,859
is is that person locked out from the

1478
00:59:18,589 --> 00:59:15,960
royal road to the psyche because he or

1479
00:59:21,410 --> 00:59:18,599
she had a given stretch of life is just

1480
00:59:24,109 --> 00:59:21,420
unable to assume the feeling state of

1481
00:59:26,329 --> 00:59:24,119
the wish fulfilled or is it possible is

1482
00:59:28,430 --> 00:59:26,339
it possible that the more and more we

1483
00:59:31,309 --> 00:59:28,440
come to validate and understand and

1484
00:59:34,190 --> 00:59:31,319
document these aspects of thought maybe

1485
00:59:38,030 --> 00:59:34,200
maybe the very conviction of possibility

1486
00:59:40,970 --> 00:59:38,040
frees us up and it could be that

1487
00:59:43,670 --> 00:59:40,980
and a passion conviction itself

1488
00:59:46,250 --> 00:59:43,680
animates some of these agencies and we

1489
00:59:49,250 --> 00:59:46,260
don't necessarily need the prescribed

1490
00:59:51,410 --> 00:59:49,260
methodology the methodology might very

1491
00:59:53,030 --> 00:59:51,420
well work but there might also be cases

1492
00:59:55,150 --> 00:59:53,040
where the individual just can't access

1493
00:59:58,490 --> 00:59:55,160
it because they're grieving for example

1494
01:00:00,950 --> 00:59:58,500
and maybe the impassioned wish is enough

1495
01:00:02,450 --> 01:00:00,960
to set off some of these energies so

1496
01:00:04,309 --> 01:00:02,460
that's an exploration that I make in

1497
01:00:06,589 --> 01:00:04,319
Daydream Believer all right here's

1498
01:00:09,289 --> 01:00:06,599
another one from Fred on patreon he asks

1499
01:00:10,910 --> 01:00:09,299
this is so cool love Mitch maybe it's an

1500
01:00:13,849 --> 01:00:10,920
obvious question but do you consider

1501
01:00:16,130 --> 01:00:13,859
ufology or parts of it occultism there's

1502
01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:16,140
no question the contact e movement is

1503
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:18,480
esoteric but as a researcher who over

1504
01:00:22,430 --> 01:00:20,160
and over goes through old cases and

1505
01:00:24,890 --> 01:00:22,440
witness reports it always ends up with

1506
01:00:29,289 --> 01:00:24,900
me thinking this is Magic this is a cult

1507
01:00:31,849 --> 01:00:29,299
this is symbolism at work and I love it

1508
01:00:33,049 --> 01:00:31,859
my thinking has grown more and more in

1509
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:33,059
the direction of a convergence

1510
01:00:38,329 --> 01:00:35,520
especially right now I mean this this

1511
01:00:40,190 --> 01:00:38,339
this past several months uh has been

1512
01:00:43,609 --> 01:00:40,200
very important for me in that regard I

1513
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:43,619
used to refer to UFOs as indirectly

1514
01:00:46,970 --> 01:00:45,599
related to the occult in fact I think I

1515
01:00:49,069 --> 01:00:46,980
say that in the introduction to

1516
01:00:50,329 --> 01:00:49,079
uncertain places a book I've probably

1517
01:00:53,930 --> 01:00:50,339
completed

1518
01:00:56,990 --> 01:00:53,940
12 or 18 months ago and since that time

1519
01:01:00,190 --> 01:00:57,000
I've come to feel that that indirect uh

1520
01:01:03,289 --> 01:01:00,200
convergence for me at least has grown

1521
01:01:06,130 --> 01:01:03,299
Fuller uh has grown more Vivid because

1522
01:01:09,109 --> 01:01:06,140
if we're talking about

1523
01:01:11,329 --> 01:01:09,119
experiences of the individual that go

1524
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:11,339
outside of common observation that open

1525
01:01:18,910 --> 01:01:15,359
us to phenomena that violates our

1526
01:01:22,490 --> 01:01:18,920
ordinary sensory or physical apparatus

1527
01:01:26,150 --> 01:01:22,500
you start to touch upon very congruent

1528
01:01:27,950 --> 01:01:26,160
conversations now if the

1529
01:01:30,530 --> 01:01:27,960
um if I'm wrong about all this extra

1530
01:01:34,010 --> 01:01:30,540
dimensional stuff and the UFO phenomenon

1531
01:01:36,109 --> 01:01:34,020
uh maybe is uh ET in nature then that

1532
01:01:37,730 --> 01:01:36,119
that that might bring it a step back but

1533
01:01:39,650 --> 01:01:37,740
there could be again as we've been

1534
01:01:42,770 --> 01:01:39,660
discussing a complexity of things going

1535
01:01:46,010 --> 01:01:42,780
on so for me especially right now

1536
01:01:48,349 --> 01:01:46,020
there's a convergence of those topics

1537
01:01:49,849 --> 01:01:48,359
what do you think Sarah is our UFOs

1538
01:01:53,030 --> 01:01:49,859
occultism

1539
01:01:55,010 --> 01:01:53,040
I mean yes I um it's funny I think I

1540
01:01:58,370 --> 01:01:55,020
said this the last time that I was on

1541
01:01:59,270 --> 01:01:58,380
the show that I um but I I kind of

1542
01:02:01,910 --> 01:01:59,280
mentioned this earlier in the podcast

1543
01:02:03,770 --> 01:02:01,920
but like I to me the occult is like a

1544
01:02:05,630 --> 01:02:03,780
way of seeing the world it's one of many

1545
01:02:07,609 --> 01:02:05,640
ways that I I see the world and I

1546
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:07,619
understand it and part of that

1547
01:02:11,210 --> 01:02:09,359
understanding is seeing the world as

1548
01:02:14,030 --> 01:02:11,220
kind of a matrix of like spirits and

1549
01:02:16,490 --> 01:02:14,040
energies and intelligences and

1550
01:02:19,250 --> 01:02:16,500
that's to be what UFOs are so they're of

1551
01:02:20,930 --> 01:02:19,260
course part of it and I and I um

1552
01:02:23,450 --> 01:02:20,940
you know I'm wearing my Venus t-shirt

1553
01:02:26,450 --> 01:02:23,460
today because UFOs Are from Venus right

1554
01:02:27,950 --> 01:02:26,460
um but I think but it's like I you know

1555
01:02:30,410 --> 01:02:27,960
there's a

1556
01:02:32,210 --> 01:02:30,420
there's obviously a feedback loop there

1557
01:02:36,230 --> 01:02:32,220
there's obviously something going on

1558
01:02:37,849 --> 01:02:36,240
where maybe the UFO of today was the god

1559
01:02:40,250 --> 01:02:37,859
of yesterday or the spirit of yesterday

1560
01:02:42,950 --> 01:02:40,260
or something like that right the fairy

1561
01:02:46,250 --> 01:02:42,960
of yesterday and

1562
01:02:47,930 --> 01:02:46,260
I it's in part because it's just how I

1563
01:02:50,329 --> 01:02:47,940
see the world that I'm going to roll

1564
01:02:52,970 --> 01:02:50,339
this into that in a way but I but I also

1565
01:02:55,370 --> 01:02:52,980
think that it's and going back to what I

1566
01:02:57,890 --> 01:02:55,380
was saying about how people want to

1567
01:03:00,289 --> 01:02:57,900
write off the UFO phenomenon now as this

1568
01:03:02,210 --> 01:03:00,299
like purely materialist hoax by the

1569
01:03:05,030 --> 01:03:02,220
government to like drum up war fever or

1570
01:03:07,609 --> 01:03:05,040
something like that like it that totally

1571
01:03:10,730 --> 01:03:07,619
discounts all the weird anomalous events

1572
01:03:12,289 --> 01:03:10,740
that coincide with UFO experiences right

1573
01:03:15,109 --> 01:03:12,299
like that totally discounts or just

1574
01:03:17,390 --> 01:03:15,119
doesn't even like know about

1575
01:03:19,010 --> 01:03:17,400
you know how it can persist through

1576
01:03:21,049 --> 01:03:19,020
generations or how there's certain like

1577
01:03:22,250 --> 01:03:21,059
animals that follow UFO encounters or

1578
01:03:24,770 --> 01:03:22,260
how there's certain

1579
01:03:26,210 --> 01:03:24,780
you know weird screen memories or rashes

1580
01:03:28,670 --> 01:03:26,220
or different you know all these other

1581
01:03:31,430 --> 01:03:28,680
things that kind of Co coincide with a

1582
01:03:33,770 --> 01:03:31,440
UFO encounter that to me are just part

1583
01:03:36,230 --> 01:03:33,780
so much a part of magic that when you do

1584
01:03:37,130 --> 01:03:36,240
magic it's not always

1585
01:03:39,950 --> 01:03:37,140
um

1586
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:39,960
you know I do a spell and then the next

1587
01:03:44,450 --> 01:03:42,480
day this thing happens exactly how I

1588
01:03:46,609 --> 01:03:44,460
wanted it it's I do this working and

1589
01:03:48,589 --> 01:03:46,619
then the next day the same symbol that I

1590
01:03:50,630 --> 01:03:48,599
used is like on the truck outside my

1591
01:03:52,130 --> 01:03:50,640
apartment and then this you know these

1592
01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:52,140
these synchronicities kind of happened

1593
01:03:57,530 --> 01:03:55,920
and it's the the same uh rhythm is being

1594
01:04:00,049 --> 01:03:57,540
played in both and so it's hard to

1595
01:04:03,650 --> 01:04:00,059
Discount that for me yeah here's one

1596
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:03,660
from let's see Rick and Bruce on

1597
01:04:06,770 --> 01:04:05,280
Facebook they actually asked an

1598
01:04:09,289 --> 01:04:06,780
identical question talk about

1599
01:04:11,270 --> 01:04:09,299
synchronicity uh have you ever had a

1600
01:04:13,309 --> 01:04:11,280
personal experience that is

1601
01:04:17,809 --> 01:04:13,319
unequivocally convinced you that

1602
01:04:20,329 --> 01:04:17,819
ceremonial magic was real uh Mitch

1603
01:04:22,069 --> 01:04:20,339
I haven't I have had an experience which

1604
01:04:24,410 --> 01:04:22,079
I write about in

1605
01:04:26,210 --> 01:04:24,420
um Daydream Believer and I also write

1606
01:04:28,430 --> 01:04:26,220
about it in my book one simple idea and

1607
01:04:32,329 --> 01:04:28,440
this has to do with mind metaphysics but

1608
01:04:35,030 --> 01:04:32,339
we're talking uh about

1609
01:04:37,309 --> 01:04:35,040
causation emanating from the psyche so I

1610
01:04:39,170 --> 01:04:37,319
don't necessarily see ceremonial magic

1611
01:04:42,109 --> 01:04:39,180
off in one Camp new thought often

1612
01:04:46,549 --> 01:04:42,119
another it's it's the individual seeking

1613
01:04:53,630 --> 01:04:50,690
causation emanating from will or psyche

1614
01:04:55,730 --> 01:04:53,640
um I describe an experience in detail in

1615
01:04:58,430 --> 01:04:55,740
both books where I was in a spiritual

1616
01:05:00,890 --> 01:04:58,440
group and I was given a job to go find

1617
01:05:02,950 --> 01:05:00,900
these pink heart-shaped buckets for a

1618
01:05:05,990 --> 01:05:02,960
winter camping trip that we were taking

1619
01:05:07,910 --> 01:05:06,000
and this was in the pre-digital day well

1620
01:05:10,430 --> 01:05:07,920
it wasn't pre-digital but it was digital

1621
01:05:12,470 --> 01:05:10,440
culture was less developed and I was I'm

1622
01:05:15,770 --> 01:05:12,480
going to really really condense it but I

1623
01:05:18,849 --> 01:05:15,780
I made a Herculean effort or her Julian

1624
01:05:21,470 --> 01:05:18,859
effort to find these little pink

1625
01:05:25,210 --> 01:05:21,480
heart-shaped buckets could find them

1626
01:05:27,589 --> 01:05:25,220
nowhere I went to plan B plan C Plan D

1627
01:05:30,650 --> 01:05:27,599
and just about when I was able to give

1628
01:05:33,170 --> 01:05:30,660
up I discovered a brand new cache of

1629
01:05:35,990 --> 01:05:33,180
them in the unlikeliest of places at the

1630
01:05:38,450 --> 01:05:36,000
unlikeliest of moments with an emotional

1631
01:05:40,069 --> 01:05:38,460
component attached to it that was beyond

1632
01:05:43,370 --> 01:05:40,079
anything you could measure on an

1633
01:05:45,770 --> 01:05:43,380
Actuarial Table and it convinced me that

1634
01:05:47,770 --> 01:05:45,780
something is is lawful there it was an

1635
01:05:51,349 --> 01:05:47,780
extraordinary experience

1636
01:05:53,390 --> 01:05:51,359
uh I don't collect experiences I don't

1637
01:05:55,910 --> 01:05:53,400
have a whole lot of vacation photos that

1638
01:05:59,650 --> 01:05:55,920
I show people from the other world but

1639
01:06:02,630 --> 01:05:59,660
that was really really far out and I I I

1640
01:06:04,490 --> 01:06:02,640
documented in detail in both books

1641
01:06:06,650 --> 01:06:04,500
love it yeah and it's such a personal

1642
01:06:09,650 --> 01:06:06,660
thing that's what I love about you know

1643
01:06:12,829 --> 01:06:09,660
someone can give me a UFO story and like

1644
01:06:14,870 --> 01:06:12,839
have a video with it and the story will

1645
01:06:16,789 --> 01:06:14,880
be 10 pages long about how to change

1646
01:06:17,930 --> 01:06:16,799
them and what it looked like and what

1647
01:06:20,809 --> 01:06:17,940
they were feeling and then I look at the

1648
01:06:24,109 --> 01:06:20,819
video and it's a star or it's a dot in

1649
01:06:26,089 --> 01:06:24,119
the sky and it truly shows you know that

1650
01:06:28,130 --> 01:06:26,099
these things are it's what meaning you

1651
01:06:30,109 --> 01:06:28,140
give to it and what what role it plays

1652
01:06:31,730 --> 01:06:30,119
in your life I I think that's that's

1653
01:06:33,650 --> 01:06:31,740
pretty cool how about you Sarah as

1654
01:06:35,809 --> 01:06:33,660
someone who practices you know literally

1655
01:06:38,089 --> 01:06:35,819
every day of your life anything really

1656
01:06:40,730 --> 01:06:38,099
stand out is like I'm on the right path

1657
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:40,740
or I'm not on the right path or yeah

1658
01:06:45,410 --> 01:06:43,680
anything really kind of shift you yeah I

1659
01:06:47,510 --> 01:06:45,420
mean I like what Mitch said there of

1660
01:06:49,430 --> 01:06:47,520
like I don't collect experiences like I

1661
01:06:51,049 --> 01:06:49,440
don't I don't have like a roll of decks

1662
01:06:53,349 --> 01:06:51,059
that I can go through and be like this

1663
01:06:56,510 --> 01:06:53,359
ritual was particularly good right like

1664
01:06:59,150 --> 01:06:56,520
I did a good magic that day um because I

1665
01:07:00,710 --> 01:06:59,160
think it is again it's not like a it's a

1666
01:07:02,270 --> 01:07:00,720
part of my life right so to me it's like

1667
01:07:04,849 --> 01:07:02,280
I'm on the right path so long as I'm

1668
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:04,859
like saying and things are going well

1669
01:07:08,750 --> 01:07:06,960
and I'm happy and like you know it's

1670
01:07:10,490 --> 01:07:08,760
fulfilling me and and it's working right

1671
01:07:11,630 --> 01:07:10,500
like you know so there's a part of it

1672
01:07:14,990 --> 01:07:11,640
that is like it's working as long as

1673
01:07:19,069 --> 01:07:15,000
it's working but I did do a a really

1674
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:19,079
long like like month-long like working

1675
01:07:23,870 --> 01:07:21,599
where I was like trying to get a very

1676
01:07:25,849 --> 01:07:23,880
particular outcome from this thing and

1677
01:07:28,789 --> 01:07:25,859
it was like every day the same time I

1678
01:07:32,089 --> 01:07:28,799
did like the same like ritual and

1679
01:07:33,829 --> 01:07:32,099
I got that phone call like and I get you

1680
01:07:36,529 --> 01:07:33,839
know it really was like I thought like

1681
01:07:38,690 --> 01:07:36,539
the next day I woke up and I was like oh

1682
01:07:40,670 --> 01:07:38,700
my God like the email's here and I just

1683
01:07:41,930 --> 01:07:40,680
I I I

1684
01:07:43,609 --> 01:07:41,940
um

1685
01:07:46,010 --> 01:07:43,619
I think that one of my the things I love

1686
01:07:48,650 --> 01:07:46,020
about magic is that I sit here and I'm

1687
01:07:51,349 --> 01:07:48,660
like yeah Magic's real it works and I

1688
01:07:53,750 --> 01:07:51,359
I've never gotten over that feeling of

1689
01:07:56,510 --> 01:07:53,760
the astonishment when it really works

1690
01:07:58,910 --> 01:07:56,520
you know I've never not felt that like

1691
01:08:00,589 --> 01:07:58,920
holy [\h__\h] magic Works kind of feeling

1692
01:08:02,870 --> 01:08:00,599
when it when something that clear

1693
01:08:04,430 --> 01:08:02,880
happens and I that's one of the things I

1694
01:08:06,410 --> 01:08:04,440
love about magic the most is that you

1695
01:08:08,930 --> 01:08:06,420
you that that kind of constant

1696
01:08:10,910 --> 01:08:08,940
wonderment doesn't really go away

1697
01:08:13,549 --> 01:08:10,920
ah I love that very inspirational

1698
01:08:15,529 --> 01:08:13,559
magical thinking I think that's you know

1699
01:08:16,970 --> 01:08:15,539
keeping that in mind thinking magical

1700
01:08:19,130 --> 01:08:16,980
thinking not magical thinking you know

1701
01:08:22,070 --> 01:08:19,140
it's like yeah exact magical thinking

1702
01:08:24,950 --> 01:08:22,080
with a K yeah exactly yeah yes I know

1703
01:08:27,470 --> 01:08:24,960
you're partial to the to the cavemen

1704
01:08:29,689 --> 01:08:27,480
um we have these perceptions of what the

1705
01:08:31,610 --> 01:08:29,699
occult is what magic is from the outside

1706
01:08:33,650 --> 01:08:31,620
perspective for those of us who haven't

1707
01:08:35,749 --> 01:08:33,660
studied it or practiced it um but this

1708
01:08:38,510 --> 01:08:35,759
is an interesting question um Brian on

1709
01:08:40,430 --> 01:08:38,520
Facebook asks any perspectives Mitch or

1710
01:08:42,849 --> 01:08:40,440
Sarah have um regarding the seemingly

1711
01:08:45,709 --> 01:08:42,859
conflicting theories of demonic entities

1712
01:08:48,890 --> 01:08:45,719
uh in terms of versus Moody's model of

1713
01:08:51,289 --> 01:08:48,900
our post mortem return to Spirit put

1714
01:08:53,030 --> 01:08:51,299
another way if we're all supposedly

1715
01:08:55,550 --> 01:08:53,040
Eternal beings of light on a path

1716
01:08:57,950 --> 01:08:55,560
towards spiritual Perfection what the

1717
01:09:00,470 --> 01:08:57,960
hell are demons and why

1718
01:09:02,749 --> 01:09:00,480
you know I if I may

1719
01:09:05,150 --> 01:09:02,759
um this is another one of these areas

1720
01:09:07,849 --> 01:09:05,160
that I think we as a seeking Community

1721
01:09:10,849 --> 01:09:07,859
need to be very careful not to get

1722
01:09:12,769 --> 01:09:10,859
hemmed into again a narrow Corridor

1723
01:09:14,390 --> 01:09:12,779
based on definitions that have come down

1724
01:09:16,970 --> 01:09:14,400
to us

1725
01:09:19,189 --> 01:09:16,980
um the term demon in its original Greek

1726
01:09:21,530 --> 01:09:19,199
is a neutral term it just means a spirit

1727
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:21,540
an extra physical entity like a genie

1728
01:09:30,169 --> 01:09:26,640
eye uh to use the uh Latin plural and it

1729
01:09:32,329 --> 01:09:30,179
was only uh in later biblical Antiquity

1730
01:09:36,470 --> 01:09:32,339
and post-biblical Antiquity that the

1731
01:09:38,689 --> 01:09:36,480
term demon got this horrible rap as

1732
01:09:42,110 --> 01:09:38,699
being something necessarily evil because

1733
01:09:45,410 --> 01:09:42,120
it was an entity contacted outside of

1734
01:09:49,849 --> 01:09:45,420
the framework of church Authority in in

1735
01:09:51,829 --> 01:09:49,859
in lucis terms and uh the term demon of

1736
01:09:53,689 --> 01:09:51,839
course does appear

1737
01:09:55,610 --> 01:09:53,699
um at least in the Greek in a Maleficent

1738
01:09:58,070 --> 01:09:55,620
sense in the New Testament it wasn't

1739
01:10:00,590 --> 01:09:58,080
exactly the case in the old and then

1740
01:10:03,470 --> 01:10:00,600
these things got really cemented in the

1741
01:10:05,390 --> 01:10:03,480
the in in post-biblical Antiquity to the

1742
01:10:07,430 --> 01:10:05,400
point where you use the word demon today

1743
01:10:09,830 --> 01:10:07,440
and it's frankly not a heck of a lot

1744
01:10:12,410 --> 01:10:09,840
different from what which sounded like a

1745
01:10:14,090 --> 01:10:12,420
hundred years ago and we need to we need

1746
01:10:17,689 --> 01:10:14,100
to free ourselves up from this a little

1747
01:10:19,490 --> 01:10:17,699
bit I mean look at the diffuseness that

1748
01:10:22,070 --> 01:10:19,500
you find in humanity we go on social

1749
01:10:23,810 --> 01:10:22,080
media all day long there's all these

1750
01:10:26,390 --> 01:10:23,820
people with their Anonymous handles

1751
01:10:28,850 --> 01:10:26,400
spouting off angrily about just

1752
01:10:31,669 --> 01:10:28,860
everything we're constantly coming into

1753
01:10:33,890 --> 01:10:31,679
contact with negative entities and

1754
01:10:36,229 --> 01:10:33,900
they're called users you know and we

1755
01:10:38,450 --> 01:10:36,239
we're we're encountering them everywhere

1756
01:10:40,970 --> 01:10:38,460
and and yet this discussion only seems

1757
01:10:42,649 --> 01:10:40,980
to come up to people on the path when

1758
01:10:43,910 --> 01:10:42,659
you know you invoke the Ouija board or

1759
01:10:45,830 --> 01:10:43,920
you know something of that nature be

1760
01:10:47,870 --> 01:10:45,840
careful with that [\h__\h] you know no one

1761
01:10:49,729 --> 01:10:47,880
ever says that about you know the the

1762
01:10:51,950 --> 01:10:49,739
commensurate and much greater problem

1763
01:10:53,930 --> 01:10:51,960
just in human relations

1764
01:10:57,830 --> 01:10:53,940
ethics relations these things are

1765
01:11:00,830 --> 01:10:57,840
omnipresent but I I I wouldn't get

1766
01:11:05,390 --> 01:11:02,750
just don't want us to get cemented into

1767
01:11:07,550 --> 01:11:05,400
using terms like demons uh to mean

1768
01:11:09,830 --> 01:11:07,560
something uh Maleficent because it's

1769
01:11:11,510 --> 01:11:09,840
it's again it's something and this is

1770
01:11:14,270 --> 01:11:11,520
that proposed something Sarah was saying

1771
01:11:17,510 --> 01:11:14,280
earlier it's a it's a term that was

1772
01:11:22,310 --> 01:11:17,520
really set into cement uh in the early

1773
01:11:25,850 --> 01:11:22,320
Christian era and we who come here uh to

1774
01:11:28,070 --> 01:11:25,860
the pathless land not to get cemented

1775
01:11:30,770 --> 01:11:28,080
into those things sometimes find

1776
01:11:32,450 --> 01:11:30,780
ourselves uh almost by osmosis just

1777
01:11:34,729 --> 01:11:32,460
using those

1778
01:11:37,729 --> 01:11:34,739
reference points and I would say the

1779
01:11:40,070 --> 01:11:37,739
individual has to be very very free and

1780
01:11:42,169 --> 01:11:40,080
and conduct his or her experiments

1781
01:11:43,310 --> 01:11:42,179
and I couldn't have said it better no I

1782
01:11:44,810 --> 01:11:43,320
couldn't have said it better I think I

1783
01:11:46,490 --> 01:11:44,820
think the only thing I'll add is that I

1784
01:11:48,890 --> 01:11:46,500
think uh you know when we talk about

1785
01:11:50,510 --> 01:11:48,900
yeah with anything with magic

1786
01:11:52,850 --> 01:11:50,520
like demons these things that conjure

1787
01:11:55,850 --> 01:11:52,860
fear not just with that I think in any

1788
01:11:58,130 --> 01:11:55,860
kind of thing if you are extremely

1789
01:12:00,110 --> 01:11:58,140
afraid of something I think it's worth

1790
01:12:01,790 --> 01:12:00,120
asking who put that thought in your head

1791
01:12:03,830 --> 01:12:01,800
and who benefits from you being

1792
01:12:05,510 --> 01:12:03,840
extremely afraid of that thing right

1793
01:12:07,250 --> 01:12:05,520
because some fears are very valid and

1794
01:12:08,510 --> 01:12:07,260
good like it's like it's good that we're

1795
01:12:10,430 --> 01:12:08,520
afraid of certain things right it's good

1796
01:12:13,490 --> 01:12:10,440
that we're afraid of a burning house or

1797
01:12:15,590 --> 01:12:13,500
oncoming traffic right but demons are

1798
01:12:17,689 --> 01:12:15,600
one of those things and magic in general

1799
01:12:19,189 --> 01:12:17,699
I mean like I that's a plug my own book

1800
01:12:21,350 --> 01:12:19,199
but it's like when I was writing my book

1801
01:12:24,229 --> 01:12:21,360
one of the things that I I think I kept

1802
01:12:25,430 --> 01:12:24,239
trying to put into it is that people

1803
01:12:27,410 --> 01:12:25,440
think that they're going to start this

1804
01:12:28,729 --> 01:12:27,420
stuff all wrong and then it's going to

1805
01:12:30,110 --> 01:12:28,739
be the Exorcist and then they're going

1806
01:12:31,729 --> 01:12:30,120
to become possessed and their life's

1807
01:12:33,709 --> 01:12:31,739
gonna fall apart and it's like that's

1808
01:12:36,229 --> 01:12:33,719
very unlikely like that's just really

1809
01:12:37,790 --> 01:12:36,239
I've seen that very few times actually

1810
01:12:41,090 --> 01:12:37,800
happen I've heard of that very few times

1811
01:12:42,470 --> 01:12:41,100
actually happening and I I think that

1812
01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:42,480
some of this is really put into our

1813
01:12:45,830 --> 01:12:44,159
heads so that we don't investigate this

1814
01:12:47,270 --> 01:12:45,840
power that we have and like the don't

1815
01:12:49,970 --> 01:12:47,280
investigate the world or we're supposed

1816
01:12:51,229 --> 01:12:49,980
to be afraid of it somehow and and I do

1817
01:12:52,610 --> 01:12:51,239
believe that there are I don't think the

1818
01:12:54,470 --> 01:12:52,620
world is just love and light I think

1819
01:12:56,330 --> 01:12:54,480
that there are malignant forces in the

1820
01:12:58,189 --> 01:12:56,340
world and that can be spiritual or can

1821
01:13:00,649 --> 01:12:58,199
it just be like Humanity but I think

1822
01:13:01,970 --> 01:13:00,659
that it's worth investigating why if

1823
01:13:03,410 --> 01:13:01,980
you're so afraid of something why are

1824
01:13:05,169 --> 01:13:03,420
you afraid of it who gave you that idea

1825
01:13:07,130 --> 01:13:05,179
you know yeah

1826
01:13:08,630 --> 01:13:07,140
absolutely

1827
01:13:10,610 --> 01:13:08,640
um well I guess that kind of bleeds into

1828
01:13:13,790 --> 01:13:10,620
one of our last listener questions here

1829
01:13:16,370 --> 01:13:13,800
Dan zetterstrom through email asks was

1830
01:13:19,850 --> 01:13:16,380
Aleister Crowley as dark and problematic

1831
01:13:21,770 --> 01:13:19,860
as he was made out to be Mitch I see you

1832
01:13:23,390 --> 01:13:21,780
laughing what do you think of that no I

1833
01:13:26,149 --> 01:13:23,400
appreciate that question I think I know

1834
01:13:28,729 --> 01:13:26,159
Dan's name from social media

1835
01:13:31,370 --> 01:13:28,739
um as far as I'm concerned Crowley was a

1836
01:13:34,970 --> 01:13:31,380
brilliant performance artist provocateur

1837
01:13:37,729 --> 01:13:34,980
magician translator I personally would

1838
01:13:41,450 --> 01:13:37,739
not have sought him out to work together

1839
01:13:43,610 --> 01:13:41,460
or to become Pals back in the day I I

1840
01:13:46,790 --> 01:13:43,620
think there was a cruelty in the man I

1841
01:13:49,370 --> 01:13:46,800
think he could experiment with people

1842
01:13:51,290 --> 01:13:49,380
um attract colleagues or collaborators

1843
01:13:54,050 --> 01:13:51,300
and just as quickly and as easily

1844
01:13:55,669 --> 01:13:54,060
dispense with them uh he said some

1845
01:13:57,410 --> 01:13:55,679
things that were alluring and wonderful

1846
01:14:00,229 --> 01:13:57,420
he said some things that were horrible

1847
01:14:02,030 --> 01:14:00,239
and ignorant uh his aesthetic was

1848
01:14:04,250 --> 01:14:02,040
incredible I mean if it wasn't for

1849
01:14:06,410 --> 01:14:04,260
Crowley's aesthetic I don't know maybe I

1850
01:14:09,590 --> 01:14:06,420
be wearing a mustard colored sweater

1851
01:14:12,350 --> 01:14:09,600
right now you know and and you you must

1852
01:14:15,950 --> 01:14:12,360
give the man tremendous credit as an

1853
01:14:18,709 --> 01:14:15,960
artist I mean the the aesthetic that he

1854
01:14:21,709 --> 01:14:18,719
set sail in our culture has proven so

1855
01:14:23,510 --> 01:14:21,719
remarkable he was a great man I would

1856
01:14:25,189 --> 01:14:23,520
not have sought him out as a friend

1857
01:14:27,709 --> 01:14:25,199
colic teacher I think there were

1858
01:14:29,750 --> 01:14:27,719
personal failings that were too great

1859
01:14:31,370 --> 01:14:29,760
interesting Sarah what do you think of

1860
01:14:33,649 --> 01:14:31,380
Aleister Crowley

1861
01:14:35,870 --> 01:14:33,659
well I think to the question of whether

1862
01:14:37,910 --> 01:14:35,880
or not he was problematic I just want to

1863
01:14:39,830 --> 01:14:37,920
say I don't love that word like I think

1864
01:14:41,510 --> 01:14:39,840
it's kind of just to put it out on the

1865
01:14:43,070 --> 01:14:41,520
record like I think it's kind of a

1866
01:14:45,229 --> 01:14:43,080
cowardly word when we say the term

1867
01:14:48,050 --> 01:14:45,239
problematic because it's like

1868
01:14:50,270 --> 01:14:48,060
well what was the problem like like

1869
01:14:50,930 --> 01:14:50,280
what's the problem you know like and I

1870
01:14:55,130 --> 01:14:50,940
think

1871
01:14:57,590 --> 01:14:55,140
wrong with the person or name what is

1872
01:15:00,770 --> 01:14:57,600
the the issue right um because it's like

1873
01:15:01,430 --> 01:15:00,780
problem problematic how to whom right

1874
01:15:03,050 --> 01:15:01,440
um

1875
01:15:05,209 --> 01:15:03,060
the short answer is yes like I think

1876
01:15:07,610 --> 01:15:05,219
like I think Mitch said it very clearly

1877
01:15:09,050 --> 01:15:07,620
like he was a very cruel guy in a lot of

1878
01:15:10,130 --> 01:15:09,060
ways like there was he he really hurt

1879
01:15:12,410 --> 01:15:10,140
people

1880
01:15:16,430 --> 01:15:12,420
he left a lot of Destruction in his wake

1881
01:15:18,950 --> 01:15:16,440
he also left a lot of you know

1882
01:15:21,470 --> 01:15:18,960
positive influence in his wake I I have

1883
01:15:24,050 --> 01:15:21,480
found his writings very beneficial in my

1884
01:15:25,550 --> 01:15:24,060
own life and I found you know some of

1885
01:15:28,189 --> 01:15:25,560
the magic and some of the philosophies

1886
01:15:30,050 --> 01:15:28,199
that he's Left Behind very positive and

1887
01:15:31,490 --> 01:15:30,060
very like influential in a good way in

1888
01:15:34,250 --> 01:15:31,500
my life I think it's like made me a

1889
01:15:36,350 --> 01:15:34,260
better person to be honest and so you

1890
01:15:38,810 --> 01:15:36,360
know can a cruel

1891
01:15:40,490 --> 01:15:38,820
you know anti-Semitism anti-semitic

1892
01:15:43,370 --> 01:15:40,500
bigot leave behind something good like

1893
01:15:45,470 --> 01:15:43,380
sure I guess that's right yeah you know

1894
01:15:47,030 --> 01:15:45,480
yeah you know it's like you know it's

1895
01:15:48,709 --> 01:15:47,040
the history of the world I guess you

1896
01:15:51,110 --> 01:15:48,719
know it's like there's it's possible for

1897
01:15:52,910 --> 01:15:51,120
a you know someone to be bad in one way

1898
01:15:54,290 --> 01:15:52,920
and beneficial in another way that's

1899
01:15:56,209 --> 01:15:54,300
just the you know the complexity of

1900
01:15:58,729 --> 01:15:56,219
human life and that's I think that that

1901
01:16:02,149 --> 01:15:58,739
means don't discount it don't only look

1902
01:16:04,430 --> 01:16:02,159
at him as a good or a bad person I think

1903
01:16:06,290 --> 01:16:04,440
that I think that Crowley is a guy that

1904
01:16:08,090 --> 01:16:06,300
a lot of people wish was very simple

1905
01:16:10,310 --> 01:16:08,100
like I think that people wish that he

1906
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:10,320
was just evil or he was like just good

1907
01:16:14,209 --> 01:16:12,719
and people will really go to the mat for

1908
01:16:16,910 --> 01:16:14,219
one of those things and I think he is

1909
01:16:18,790 --> 01:16:16,920
just an extremely complicated figure of

1910
01:16:21,350 --> 01:16:18,800
the 19th and 20th Century that like

1911
01:16:23,270 --> 01:16:21,360
deserves the the

1912
01:16:24,649 --> 01:16:23,280
deserves all the biographies that have

1913
01:16:26,810 --> 01:16:24,659
been done of him and honestly more

1914
01:16:29,270 --> 01:16:26,820
because I think that there's a lot to be

1915
01:16:30,830 --> 01:16:29,280
dove into there on the man

1916
01:16:33,770 --> 01:16:30,840
um yeah yeah

1917
01:16:35,390 --> 01:16:33,780
and if I may add you know reading the

1918
01:16:37,790 --> 01:16:35,400
book of the law is a book that I

1919
01:16:40,010 --> 01:16:37,800
frequently go back to and that really

1920
01:16:43,070 --> 01:16:40,020
opened up a lot for me and I think that

1921
01:16:45,709 --> 01:16:43,080
book as a a colleague of mine once says

1922
01:16:48,709 --> 01:16:45,719
comes from a a very

1923
01:16:51,470 --> 01:16:48,719
powerful Source a very Dynamic Source

1924
01:16:54,290 --> 01:16:51,480
the fact that he kind of downloaded this

1925
01:16:56,810 --> 01:16:54,300
so to speak in handwriting over a period

1926
01:17:00,110 --> 01:16:56,820
of three days is extraordinary to me

1927
01:17:02,090 --> 01:17:00,120
that book has cast a huge influence

1928
01:17:04,310 --> 01:17:02,100
across our culture and it's been a very

1929
01:17:07,010 --> 01:17:04,320
intimate and important influence for me

1930
01:17:09,169 --> 01:17:07,020
uh so again you know we we have to be

1931
01:17:11,270 --> 01:17:09,179
willing as Sarah was saying to sort of

1932
01:17:12,950 --> 01:17:11,280
do the dance and realize

1933
01:17:15,590 --> 01:17:12,960
you know there's a lot of different

1934
01:17:18,169 --> 01:17:15,600
complexities going on

1935
01:17:20,090 --> 01:17:18,179
um but I'll I'll Avail myself of of his

1936
01:17:22,189 --> 01:17:20,100
work and anyone's work who I feel had

1937
01:17:23,890 --> 01:17:22,199
moments of splendor

1938
01:17:28,430 --> 01:17:23,900
yeah

1939
01:17:31,490 --> 01:17:28,440
gorgeous book and I recommend everyone

1940
01:17:32,689 --> 01:17:31,500
read it to be honest okay I I have not

1941
01:17:35,630 --> 01:17:32,699
read it I'm gonna have to give it a look

1942
01:17:38,510 --> 01:17:35,640
I I just know of course as a ufologist

1943
01:17:41,330 --> 01:17:38,520
all I know of Crowley is the the lamb

1944
01:17:43,610 --> 01:17:41,340
image the very famous celebrity keeps me

1945
01:17:45,890 --> 01:17:43,620
up at night that's a story for another

1946
01:17:47,570 --> 01:17:45,900
time maybe we'll do a patreon episode

1947
01:17:49,250 --> 01:17:47,580
about that

1948
01:17:51,229 --> 01:17:49,260
um well that's it for listener questions

1949
01:17:53,450 --> 01:17:51,239
guys uh Mitch I've got a couple closing

1950
01:17:54,890 --> 01:17:53,460
questions for you before we wrap up if

1951
01:17:55,490 --> 01:17:54,900
that's okay awesome

1952
01:17:57,410 --> 01:17:55,500
um

1953
01:18:00,530 --> 01:17:57,420
I kind of wanted to know your thoughts

1954
01:18:03,410 --> 01:18:00,540
you know the we're now living in this

1955
01:18:04,970 --> 01:18:03,420
new discourse in ufology when it comes

1956
01:18:05,750 --> 01:18:04,980
to the government and everything like

1957
01:18:09,050 --> 01:18:05,760
that

1958
01:18:11,390 --> 01:18:09,060
um and Military government institutions

1959
01:18:13,970 --> 01:18:11,400
they seem to be wrapping their claws

1960
01:18:17,209 --> 01:18:13,980
around this topic and Sarah I think

1961
01:18:20,149 --> 01:18:17,219
really uh said it best like they're

1962
01:18:22,729 --> 01:18:20,159
taking advantage of this mystery of this

1963
01:18:25,070 --> 01:18:22,739
phenomenon in terms of National Security

1964
01:18:27,649 --> 01:18:25,080
how can we maybe up the military budget

1965
01:18:31,610 --> 01:18:27,659
and yeah yeah maybe that is a big aspect

1966
01:18:34,669 --> 01:18:31,620
to it but um besides that like what do

1967
01:18:37,550 --> 01:18:34,679
you hope for when it comes to the UFO

1968
01:18:39,350 --> 01:18:37,560
topic moving forward it's now front and

1969
01:18:41,209 --> 01:18:39,360
center like never before and I think a

1970
01:18:44,030 --> 01:18:41,219
lot of us were really taken back by that

1971
01:18:45,770 --> 01:18:44,040
and were like okay do we even have a

1972
01:18:48,350 --> 01:18:45,780
voice in this anymore or is it just Tom

1973
01:18:51,290 --> 01:18:48,360
Delong is it just Neil deGrasse Tyson is

1974
01:18:54,110 --> 01:18:51,300
it just uh Avi lope and you know and

1975
01:18:56,209 --> 01:18:54,120
nobody's wrong or right to be kind of

1976
01:18:58,490 --> 01:18:56,219
the the poster child child or whatever

1977
01:19:00,590 --> 01:18:58,500
for a mystery like this or the

1978
01:19:02,930 --> 01:19:00,600
Paranormal but uh yeah what do you hope

1979
01:19:05,990 --> 01:19:02,940
for moving forward with this topic well

1980
01:19:10,610 --> 01:19:06,000
I'm very interested uh in

1981
01:19:13,010 --> 01:19:10,620
extra physicality and my search is

1982
01:19:15,890 --> 01:19:13,020
really the search for extra physicality

1983
01:19:19,910 --> 01:19:15,900
and the manner in which I and others can

1984
01:19:25,070 --> 01:19:19,920
expand their sense of human agency and

1985
01:19:28,030 --> 01:19:25,080
if the UFO phenomena has a psychical

1986
01:19:30,770 --> 01:19:28,040
component you know in terms of the extra

1987
01:19:33,110 --> 01:19:30,780
dimensionality interdimensionality that

1988
01:19:36,950 --> 01:19:33,120
I was talking about

1989
01:19:41,090 --> 01:19:36,960
um my hope is that it it it helps

1990
01:19:43,970 --> 01:19:41,100
wedge open uh uh a little more in our

1991
01:19:46,850 --> 01:19:43,980
generation the extent to which we place

1992
01:19:49,669 --> 01:19:46,860
uh stock in the extra physical

1993
01:19:52,669 --> 01:19:49,679
capacities of our mind capacities that

1994
01:19:56,930 --> 01:19:52,679
are not necessarily abound by time or

1995
01:20:00,410 --> 01:19:56,940
localism uh or linearity and if we do

1996
01:20:03,229 --> 01:20:00,420
that I think that that represents just a

1997
01:20:06,530 --> 01:20:03,239
deepening of this question of of who we

1998
01:20:09,649 --> 01:20:06,540
are and and what we can do with who we

1999
01:20:12,350 --> 01:20:09,659
are so that I would say is my fondest

2000
01:20:15,410 --> 01:20:12,360
hope at this moment as the UFO thesis

2001
01:20:17,090 --> 01:20:15,420
goes mainstream I'll I'll ask one more

2002
01:20:18,169 --> 01:20:17,100
throw you a curveball here Mitch before

2003
01:20:20,270 --> 01:20:18,179
we go

2004
01:20:22,010 --> 01:20:20,280
um I'm a big fan of cursed films on

2005
01:20:23,630 --> 01:20:22,020
shutter uh that's kind of where I

2006
01:20:25,669 --> 01:20:23,640
discovered your work I was like oh this

2007
01:20:28,610 --> 01:20:25,679
dude knows what he's talking about

2008
01:20:32,030 --> 01:20:28,620
um I gotta ask are there any films that

2009
01:20:33,649 --> 01:20:32,040
you truly believe are curse and kind of

2010
01:20:36,350 --> 01:20:33,659
a side question to that do you have a

2011
01:20:38,810 --> 01:20:36,360
favorite UFO or alien themed movie so

2012
01:20:41,330 --> 01:20:38,820
any actual cursed films and second

2013
01:20:45,770 --> 01:20:41,340
favorite UFO or alien theme movie

2014
01:20:49,490 --> 01:20:45,780
well um I think a film is so deeply

2015
01:20:52,610 --> 01:20:49,500
enmeshed in the experience of the viewer

2016
01:20:54,530 --> 01:20:52,620
um yeah I remember uh my friend Michael

2017
01:20:57,050 --> 01:20:54,540
Muhammad Knight asked the question of

2018
01:20:59,330 --> 01:20:57,060
whether a film can serve as sacred

2019
01:21:02,750 --> 01:20:59,340
scripture and he began his conversion to

2020
01:21:05,209 --> 01:21:02,760
Islam at age 15 after seeing uh the

2021
01:21:08,810 --> 01:21:05,219
Malcolm X movie for example I remember

2022
01:21:11,209 --> 01:21:08,820
as a child being profoundly touched

2023
01:21:14,270 --> 01:21:11,219
um by Close Encounters I was not a Star

2024
01:21:15,830 --> 01:21:14,280
Wars kid I was a close encounters kid I

2025
01:21:17,450 --> 01:21:15,840
have and we'll just have to tuck this

2026
01:21:19,729 --> 01:21:17,460
away for a future episode been very

2027
01:21:24,110 --> 01:21:19,739
touched by the movie Rosemary's Baby in

2028
01:21:26,689 --> 01:21:24,120
a variety of ways and so I don't really

2029
01:21:28,550 --> 01:21:26,699
take I don't really

2030
01:21:31,370 --> 01:21:28,560
um think of

2031
01:21:34,010 --> 01:21:31,380
films as being cursed but I do think

2032
01:21:36,530 --> 01:21:34,020
they can awaken things in people that

2033
01:21:38,930 --> 01:21:36,540
are very powerful and the the

2034
01:21:41,450 --> 01:21:38,940
um director of the series the writer

2035
01:21:44,149 --> 01:21:41,460
director Jay Shield who's brilliant I

2036
01:21:47,270 --> 01:21:44,159
think he always had to contend with the

2037
01:21:50,570 --> 01:21:47,280
fact that he was given a kind of

2038
01:21:54,229 --> 01:21:50,580
um framework within to within which to

2039
01:21:56,570 --> 01:21:54,239
structure the series and so he had to

2040
01:21:59,149 --> 01:21:56,580
perform very creatively and very

2041
01:22:00,890 --> 01:21:59,159
brilliantly in my estimation within that

2042
01:22:03,649 --> 01:22:00,900
framework

2043
01:22:06,530 --> 01:22:03,659
um and I guess I share his point of view

2044
01:22:09,890 --> 01:22:06,540
that you know when the term curse films

2045
01:22:11,570 --> 01:22:09,900
is used apropos that show it's being

2046
01:22:13,430 --> 01:22:11,580
used

2047
01:22:14,750 --> 01:22:13,440
um with a certain arginess with a

2048
01:22:16,370 --> 01:22:14,760
certain wit you know it's making

2049
01:22:19,189 --> 01:22:16,380
reference to the fact that yeah you know

2050
01:22:21,470 --> 01:22:19,199
we culturally think the Exorcist is

2051
01:22:23,090 --> 01:22:21,480
cursed or what have you but but it's a

2052
01:22:25,490 --> 01:22:23,100
way of telling the whole story behind

2053
01:22:28,189 --> 01:22:25,500
the film and its sources including weird

2054
01:22:30,970 --> 01:22:28,199
things that happened on on set Jay's

2055
01:22:33,350 --> 01:22:30,980
done some really a brilliant forensics

2056
01:22:35,570 --> 01:22:33,360
explaining how horrible accidents have

2057
01:22:36,950 --> 01:22:35,580
happened on set and and the story behind

2058
01:22:39,590 --> 01:22:36,960
these things are

2059
01:22:41,270 --> 01:22:39,600
you know as enthralling and and contain

2060
01:22:42,890 --> 01:22:41,280
more pathos sometimes than the movie

2061
01:22:45,770 --> 01:22:42,900
itself

2062
01:22:47,990 --> 01:22:45,780
um so I think I think that that covers

2063
01:22:49,850 --> 01:22:48,000
your question uh of favorites and kind

2064
01:22:51,410 --> 01:22:49,860
of film be cursed and thank you for

2065
01:22:54,590 --> 01:22:51,420
watching it it was such a pleasure to

2066
01:22:57,950 --> 01:22:54,600
work on that because Jay the director is

2067
01:23:01,330 --> 01:22:57,960
someone who did not uh

2068
01:23:04,610 --> 01:23:01,340
come to the series initially as someone

2069
01:23:07,250 --> 01:23:04,620
predisposed to belief in the mystical or

2070
01:23:09,410 --> 01:23:07,260
the extra physical and and he involved

2071
01:23:11,330 --> 01:23:09,420
me in it very early on because he wanted

2072
01:23:13,370 --> 01:23:11,340
to have a voice that would discuss those

2073
01:23:15,470 --> 01:23:13,380
things and that was really meaningful

2074
01:23:18,169 --> 01:23:15,480
and and he's just done so much to make

2075
01:23:20,990 --> 01:23:18,179
that that series now in two seasons you

2076
01:23:22,370 --> 01:23:21,000
know really epic yeah absolutely I hope

2077
01:23:25,310 --> 01:23:22,380
there's gonna be more I definitely do

2078
01:23:27,470 --> 01:23:25,320
the same oh well on that note Mitch

2079
01:23:29,930 --> 01:23:27,480
where can we find everything you're up

2080
01:23:31,610 --> 01:23:29,940
to do you have anything uh coming up in

2081
01:23:33,530 --> 01:23:31,620
New York or abroad that you can tell us

2082
01:23:35,870 --> 01:23:33,540
about and obviously where can we find

2083
01:23:37,729 --> 01:23:35,880
the book sure uh well the book on

2084
01:23:41,510 --> 01:23:37,739
certain places is anywhere you buy your

2085
01:23:44,689 --> 01:23:41,520
books it's in audio digital and print

2086
01:23:47,209 --> 01:23:44,699
um it's on sale uh officially on

2087
01:23:48,830 --> 01:23:47,219
November 8th

2088
01:23:50,390 --> 01:23:48,840
um best place to keep up with me is

2089
01:23:52,850 --> 01:23:50,400
social media because I'm terrible about

2090
01:23:55,130 --> 01:23:52,860
updating my website I should start time

2091
01:23:58,790 --> 01:23:55,140
and so I'm on Twitter at Mitch Horowitz

2092
01:24:01,610 --> 01:23:58,800
I'm on Instagram at Mitch horowitz23.

2093
01:24:04,669 --> 01:24:01,620
um I'm giving a number of Zoom talks and

2094
01:24:07,010 --> 01:24:04,679
I'm giving a live talk uh here in New

2095
01:24:08,870 --> 01:24:07,020
York City I really ought to know this

2096
01:24:11,270 --> 01:24:08,880
date but I just take it hour by hour

2097
01:24:12,470 --> 01:24:11,280
here because there's a lot going on but

2098
01:24:14,689 --> 01:24:12,480
I want to give you the talk because

2099
01:24:17,630 --> 01:24:14,699
anybody who's in the New York City area

2100
01:24:20,390 --> 01:24:17,640
I'd love for you to come out live

2101
01:24:23,149 --> 01:24:20,400
um I'm giving a live talk at film Noir

2102
01:24:26,750 --> 01:24:23,159
Cinema in Brooklyn and that's on

2103
01:24:28,910 --> 01:24:26,760
Thursday the 17th at 7 pm film Noir

2104
01:24:30,110 --> 01:24:28,920
Cinema in Greenpoint Brooklyn and I'll

2105
01:24:31,970 --> 01:24:30,120
be talking about uncertain places

2106
01:24:33,470 --> 01:24:31,980
signing the book I'm looking forward to

2107
01:24:34,610 --> 01:24:33,480
that because I bought a Perfection for

2108
01:24:38,030 --> 01:24:34,620
that place

2109
01:24:40,669 --> 01:24:38,040
that's awesome Mitch well man this again

2110
01:24:42,890 --> 01:24:40,679
I I can't thank you for coming on we've

2111
01:24:45,410 --> 01:24:42,900
uh We've definitely embraced you here in

2112
01:24:46,910 --> 01:24:45,420
the UFO world ever since you came on the

2113
01:24:49,669 --> 01:24:46,920
scene and I know you've been doing a lot

2114
01:24:51,290 --> 01:24:49,679
of work for many years so uh I know this

2115
01:24:53,689 --> 01:24:51,300
is just the beginning of our

2116
01:24:55,970 --> 01:24:53,699
conversation I'd love to have you and

2117
01:24:57,770 --> 01:24:55,980
Sarah back on to discuss more of these

2118
01:25:01,250 --> 01:24:57,780
things in the future but I gotta thank

2119
01:25:02,689 --> 01:25:01,260
you for any time this is wonderful thank

2120
01:25:06,410 --> 01:25:02,699
you for coming on somewhere in the skies

2121
01:25:10,130 --> 01:25:06,420
really enjoyed it thank you

2122
01:25:12,770 --> 01:25:10,140
that was wow I I don't even know like

2123
01:25:14,810 --> 01:25:12,780
how to respond to half of what Mitch

2124
01:25:15,770 --> 01:25:14,820
said it's just so much to think about so

2125
01:25:17,750 --> 01:25:15,780
much to

2126
01:25:19,310 --> 01:25:17,760
um ruminate on but yeah how do you think

2127
01:25:20,689 --> 01:25:19,320
it went what what did you take from that

2128
01:25:23,570 --> 01:25:20,699
conversation

2129
01:25:25,850 --> 01:25:23,580
I you know Mitch is just really such a

2130
01:25:28,490 --> 01:25:25,860
gift in this field I really think like

2131
01:25:31,790 --> 01:25:30,530
not like I know that we're we're having

2132
01:25:34,250 --> 01:25:31,800
we have this whole conversation about

2133
01:25:35,870 --> 01:25:34,260
how like we need to like

2134
01:25:37,370 --> 01:25:35,880
um you know create our own Paradigm and

2135
01:25:38,450 --> 01:25:37,380
we should you know we should act I was

2136
01:25:40,310 --> 01:25:38,460
going to say this to him during the

2137
01:25:41,810 --> 01:25:40,320
interview but he had this wonderful line

2138
01:25:43,790 --> 01:25:41,820
and that talk that he gave about like we

2139
01:25:45,590 --> 01:25:43,800
shouldn't apologize for being Believers

2140
01:25:47,810 --> 01:25:45,600
anymore and like as much as I believe

2141
01:25:50,630 --> 01:25:47,820
all of that it is genuinely so good to

2142
01:25:53,510 --> 01:25:50,640
have someone on our side who like

2143
01:25:55,669 --> 01:25:53,520
is so intellectually rigorous it really

2144
01:25:58,370 --> 01:25:55,679
speaks this language and it does the

2145
01:25:59,510 --> 01:25:58,380
work and does the research and is like I

2146
01:26:01,430 --> 01:25:59,520
truly think that he's just such a gift

2147
01:26:03,229 --> 01:26:01,440
that we haven't so it was it was awesome

2148
01:26:04,129 --> 01:26:03,239
to be able to pick his brain on all of

2149
01:26:06,890 --> 01:26:04,139
this stuff

2150
01:26:09,110 --> 01:26:06,900
I know I had like 50 more questions

2151
01:26:11,570 --> 01:26:09,120
we'll have to get him back on yeah and

2152
01:26:13,430 --> 01:26:11,580
it's also I I just really am happy to be

2153
01:26:15,050 --> 01:26:13,440
here for this like time in history not

2154
01:26:15,649 --> 01:26:15,060
to be true be too dramatic of like you

2155
01:26:19,430 --> 01:26:15,659
know

2156
01:26:22,430 --> 01:26:19,440
seeing a new thought and occultism and

2157
01:26:24,169 --> 01:26:22,440
ufology like converge finally it feels

2158
01:26:25,729 --> 01:26:24,179
good to see that happening and that

2159
01:26:27,050 --> 01:26:25,739
we're all kind of talking to each other

2160
01:26:29,330 --> 01:26:27,060
finally

2161
01:26:31,189 --> 01:26:29,340
um I it's it's a genuinely like

2162
01:26:34,070 --> 01:26:31,199
heartening thing to see

2163
01:26:37,430 --> 01:26:34,080
yeah absolutely I know you're finally

2164
01:26:40,490 --> 01:26:37,440
getting like the jocks with the uh the

2165
01:26:42,410 --> 01:26:40,500
drama kids and it's all it's The

2166
01:26:44,810 --> 01:26:42,420
Breakfast Club it's the goddamn

2167
01:26:48,530 --> 01:26:44,820
Breakfast Club over here uh and we're

2168
01:26:50,810 --> 01:26:48,540
all well I gotta ask before I let you go

2169
01:26:53,689 --> 01:26:50,820
uh you have a new book coming out this

2170
01:26:55,490 --> 01:26:53,699
week as of the Airing of this episode so

2171
01:26:57,709 --> 01:26:55,500
can you tell us a little about the book

2172
01:26:59,450 --> 01:26:57,719
and where we can find it and yeah yeah

2173
01:27:02,030 --> 01:26:59,460
what kind of inspired you to write this

2174
01:27:03,950 --> 01:27:02,040
one yeah so my next book is called how

2175
01:27:04,729 --> 01:27:03,960
to study magic and that's what it's

2176
01:27:07,189 --> 01:27:04,739
about

2177
01:27:08,810 --> 01:27:07,199
um it is coming out on November 15th

2178
01:27:11,209 --> 01:27:08,820
from running press books and it should

2179
01:27:13,610 --> 01:27:11,219
be available wherever you get your books

2180
01:27:16,010 --> 01:27:13,620
um it I was inspired to write it both

2181
01:27:18,229 --> 01:27:16,020
for people who are already in the occult

2182
01:27:19,790 --> 01:27:18,239
world and people who are outside of it

2183
01:27:22,250 --> 01:27:19,800
for the people who are in The Occult

2184
01:27:24,350 --> 01:27:22,260
world I wanted to write it because the

2185
01:27:27,830 --> 01:27:24,360
most the question you get asked the most

2186
01:27:30,169 --> 01:27:27,840
is how do I get into this stuff and uh

2187
01:27:32,330 --> 01:27:30,179
the answer is different for every single

2188
01:27:34,850 --> 01:27:32,340
person it's it's only depends on who you

2189
01:27:37,370 --> 01:27:34,860
are what you want to study what you know

2190
01:27:38,930 --> 01:27:37,380
what effects you want and so you never

2191
01:27:41,629 --> 01:27:38,940
really have a satisfying answer to that

2192
01:27:43,490 --> 01:27:41,639
and to people who want to study Magic

2193
01:27:45,290 --> 01:27:43,500
there's really not like I said there's

2194
01:27:47,990 --> 01:27:45,300
not a satisfying answer to how you get

2195
01:27:50,510 --> 01:27:48,000
into this stuff quote unquote and so I

2196
01:27:52,970 --> 01:27:50,520
wanted to write a book that deals with

2197
01:27:55,250 --> 01:27:52,980
magic not as like a singular thing but

2198
01:27:58,189 --> 01:27:55,260
as a several different paths that you

2199
01:28:00,229 --> 01:27:58,199
can follow so I have chaos magic I have

2200
01:28:02,689 --> 01:28:00,239
witchcraft I have grimoire magic I have

2201
01:28:04,490 --> 01:28:02,699
ceremonial magic and I have paganism I

2202
01:28:06,229 --> 01:28:04,500
give people history on all of these

2203
01:28:08,030 --> 01:28:06,239
practices how they feed into each other

2204
01:28:10,189 --> 01:28:08,040
I talk about

2205
01:28:12,050 --> 01:28:10,199
my own personal experiences with them

2206
01:28:13,669 --> 01:28:12,060
and like things that I do or don't like

2207
01:28:14,810 --> 01:28:13,679
or like these are books that I like

2208
01:28:16,610 --> 01:28:14,820
these are books that I don't really care

2209
01:28:18,169 --> 01:28:16,620
for that kind of thing so I give book

2210
01:28:19,970 --> 01:28:18,179
recommendations at the end of every

2211
01:28:22,070 --> 01:28:19,980
chapter I give people a piece of magic

2212
01:28:23,890 --> 01:28:22,080
from those Traditions to practice to see

2213
01:28:28,729 --> 01:28:23,900
how they feel about it and feel it out

2214
01:28:30,410 --> 01:28:28,739
and I give some general like uh help at

2215
01:28:33,229 --> 01:28:30,420
the beginning and end on how to assess

2216
01:28:34,669 --> 01:28:33,239
sources and how to actually like if

2217
01:28:36,709 --> 01:28:34,679
you're looking at a book or watching a

2218
01:28:38,810 --> 01:28:36,719
video hearing a lecture a podcast such

2219
01:28:40,129 --> 01:28:38,820
as this uh how do you check up and see

2220
01:28:43,010 --> 01:28:40,139
that we weren't bullshitting you this

2221
01:28:45,709 --> 01:28:43,020
whole time so I really tried my hardest

2222
01:28:47,930 --> 01:28:45,719
to make it as accessible as possible and

2223
01:28:50,390 --> 01:28:47,940
if anybody out here uh listening to it

2224
01:28:53,570 --> 01:28:50,400
has a great urge to study magic but

2225
01:28:57,290 --> 01:28:53,580
doesn't know where to begin I I wrote

2226
01:28:59,410 --> 01:28:57,300
the book for you so go get it nice yeah

2227
01:29:03,649 --> 01:28:59,420
I love it again that comes out November

2228
01:29:05,870 --> 01:29:03,659
15th is that correct yes okay cool

2229
01:29:09,350 --> 01:29:05,880
um second question so Halloween

2230
01:29:11,570 --> 01:29:09,360
obviously we all watch our our go-to's

2231
01:29:13,790 --> 01:29:11,580
every year mine is the Michael Myers

2232
01:29:15,410 --> 01:29:13,800
franchise because I'm a simpleton

2233
01:29:18,649 --> 01:29:15,420
straight white male and loves this

2234
01:29:23,270 --> 01:29:18,659
slasher movies but I also really like

2235
01:29:26,629 --> 01:29:23,280
Hocus Focus so the sequel came out

2236
01:29:30,830 --> 01:29:26,639
um icicum to Disney entertainment and I

2237
01:29:33,290 --> 01:29:30,840
loved it uh but you recently as a witch

2238
01:29:35,390 --> 01:29:33,300
were interviewed for Newsweek about

2239
01:29:37,070 --> 01:29:35,400
Hocus Focus 2. so you got to tell me

2240
01:29:39,649 --> 01:29:37,080
what was that experience like what was

2241
01:29:40,850 --> 01:29:39,659
the article about yeah what's so

2242
01:29:42,350 --> 01:29:40,860
embarrassing is no what's so

2243
01:29:44,570 --> 01:29:42,360
embarrassing is I haven't seen it so

2244
01:29:45,530 --> 01:29:44,580
it's like what's embarrassing that they

2245
01:29:47,990 --> 01:29:45,540
were like what were your thoughts on

2246
01:29:49,189 --> 01:29:48,000
Hocus Pocus too and I was like oh I

2247
01:29:52,129 --> 01:29:49,199
could totally give my thoughts on Hocus

2248
01:29:53,330 --> 01:29:52,139
Pocus but it was because they did but

2249
01:29:54,649 --> 01:29:53,340
they didn't ask me what I thought

2250
01:29:57,350 --> 01:29:54,659
because people thought that that

2251
01:29:59,810 --> 01:29:57,360
headline the first headline title that

2252
01:30:01,490 --> 01:29:59,820
was like it's a mediocre film was like

2253
01:30:03,470 --> 01:30:01,500
my what I said about it and I haven't

2254
01:30:09,229 --> 01:30:03,480
seen it I can't judge if it's mediocre

2255
01:30:11,149 --> 01:30:09,239
or not but I um I I what they asked me

2256
01:30:13,370 --> 01:30:11,159
about was like what did I think about

2257
01:30:15,590 --> 01:30:13,380
the backlash to it and did I think it

2258
01:30:18,050 --> 01:30:15,600
was accurate or not and I kind of I I

2259
01:30:19,790 --> 01:30:18,060
took a bit of an intellectual jump and I

2260
01:30:22,070 --> 01:30:19,800
figured it would probably not be too

2261
01:30:23,629 --> 01:30:22,080
dissimilar from the depiction of

2262
01:30:26,470 --> 01:30:23,639
witchcrafted the first one so I was like

2263
01:30:29,930 --> 01:30:26,480
I think I can talk about how accurate

2264
01:30:31,490 --> 01:30:29,940
yeah uh like a Disney children's movie I

2265
01:30:34,070 --> 01:30:31,500
think I could guess about what's going

2266
01:30:35,930 --> 01:30:34,080
on here right so it was very so but I I

2267
01:30:37,490 --> 01:30:35,940
liked that they included both of my

2268
01:30:39,950 --> 01:30:37,500
quotes because I felt like despite the

2269
01:30:41,570 --> 01:30:39,960
second one was the the spicier one

2270
01:30:44,090 --> 01:30:41,580
um about the kind of backlash to the

2271
01:30:47,090 --> 01:30:44,100
film but I uh it's so funny because I

2272
01:30:48,850 --> 01:30:47,100
genuinely haven't seen it so so if you

2273
01:30:51,590 --> 01:30:48,860
loved it that's awesome

2274
01:30:54,110 --> 01:30:51,600
I did I absolutely loved it it was just

2275
01:30:56,030 --> 01:30:54,120
so cool that I saw your name pop up with

2276
01:30:58,610 --> 01:30:56,040
Hocus Pocus 2 never never thought I'd

2277
01:31:00,290 --> 01:30:58,620
see the day but yeah it was I mean I do

2278
01:31:02,149 --> 01:31:00,300
I love the first one first one's one of

2279
01:31:04,189 --> 01:31:02,159
my favorite Halloween movies genuinely

2280
01:31:05,450 --> 01:31:04,199
and I love the Michael Myers franchise I

2281
01:31:08,030 --> 01:31:05,460
think it's one of the strongest horror

2282
01:31:09,770 --> 01:31:08,040
franchises if I do say so did you did

2283
01:31:11,149 --> 01:31:09,780
you see the last one no I haven't seen

2284
01:31:13,010 --> 01:31:11,159
that one okay we don't have to talk

2285
01:31:13,629 --> 01:31:13,020
about that one so that's

2286
01:31:17,510 --> 01:31:13,639
it

2287
01:31:19,910 --> 01:31:17,520
on that I just mean more like the um a

2288
01:31:21,590 --> 01:31:19,920
genuine like Halloween is that that's my

2289
01:31:23,930 --> 01:31:21,600
Miracle on 34th Street I watched that

2290
01:31:25,850 --> 01:31:23,940
every year but then I I

2291
01:31:28,189 --> 01:31:25,860
um I watch that every year I love

2292
01:31:32,209 --> 01:31:28,199
Halloween too Justice for Halloween

2293
01:31:33,470 --> 01:31:32,219
three Season of the Witch and you know I

2294
01:31:35,270 --> 01:31:33,480
and I'll say you know what a

2295
01:31:38,750 --> 01:31:35,280
controversial opinion Justice for

2296
01:31:41,209 --> 01:31:38,760
Halloween H2O Halloween H2 I think kinda

2297
01:31:44,030 --> 01:31:41,219
is cool like it's got something going on

2298
01:31:46,070 --> 01:31:44,040
that I like it's it's like definitely a

2299
01:31:47,750 --> 01:31:46,080
90s slasher which you know people can

2300
01:31:50,870 --> 01:31:47,760
have their problems with but I think

2301
01:31:52,850 --> 01:31:50,880
it's kind of fun yeah I just saw it for

2302
01:31:55,550 --> 01:31:52,860
the first time actually you got Josh

2303
01:32:00,430 --> 01:31:55,560
Hartnett in it 90 seconds for a second

2304
01:32:06,430 --> 01:32:03,530
oh my God and like talk about a

2305
01:32:08,870 --> 01:32:06,440
definitive ending uh in terms of

2306
01:32:11,090 --> 01:32:08,880
beheading Michael Myers and then it's

2307
01:32:13,490 --> 01:32:11,100
like cut to Black they ended alert

2308
01:32:16,070 --> 01:32:13,500
everybody spoilers yeah sorry spoiler

2309
01:32:18,890 --> 01:32:16,080
earlier for a 30 year old movie yeah

2310
01:32:20,930 --> 01:32:18,900
I love it yeah

2311
01:32:22,910 --> 01:32:20,940
okay yeah that's so that's my

2312
01:32:25,250 --> 01:32:22,920
disappointing answer that's my my chaos

2313
01:32:27,530 --> 01:32:25,260
magic answer is I actually I fooled you

2314
01:32:30,490 --> 01:32:27,540
all into thinking I had seen Hocus Pocus

2315
01:32:33,770 --> 01:32:30,500
too but it was but trickery

2316
01:32:36,950 --> 01:32:33,780
I love it I adopted the Paradigm that I

2317
01:32:40,010 --> 01:32:36,960
had seen it so there you go yeah think

2318
01:32:41,689 --> 01:32:40,020
it and it will be I gotta ask last

2319
01:32:44,390 --> 01:32:41,699
question of course Sarah where can we

2320
01:32:46,610 --> 01:32:44,400
find everything you're up to you can

2321
01:32:48,470 --> 01:32:46,620
find me on uh Instagram is where I'm the

2322
01:32:50,870 --> 01:32:48,480
most active I am at City Mystic on

2323
01:32:53,750 --> 01:32:50,880
Instagram I am still on Twitter uh Sarah

2324
01:32:56,149 --> 01:32:53,760
Dash Lions uh and you can find me there

2325
01:33:00,350 --> 01:32:56,159
you can find my website Sarah

2326
01:33:02,629 --> 01:33:00,360
dashlions.com and what else so I'm going

2327
01:33:04,970 --> 01:33:02,639
to be doing my book launch for how to

2328
01:33:08,330 --> 01:33:04,980
study magic is going to be the 21st of

2329
01:33:11,510 --> 01:33:08,340
November at St Vitus here in Greenpoint

2330
01:33:13,370 --> 01:33:11,520
so it's if you're here in Brooklyn come

2331
01:33:14,990 --> 01:33:13,380
on by for my book launch that's gonna be

2332
01:33:18,290 --> 01:33:15,000
7 P.M

2333
01:33:20,689 --> 01:33:18,300
November 21st at Saint Vitus

2334
01:33:23,330 --> 01:33:20,699
what else do I have going on I am

2335
01:33:26,810 --> 01:33:23,340
currently in the process of making a

2336
01:33:28,550 --> 01:33:26,820
movie so if anybody likes me on this if

2337
01:33:30,950 --> 01:33:28,560
any producers like me on this podcast

2338
01:33:32,330 --> 01:33:30,960
and want to sponsor a female horror

2339
01:33:35,209 --> 01:33:32,340
director

2340
01:33:36,590 --> 01:33:35,219
get in my email so um which you can find

2341
01:33:38,990 --> 01:33:36,600
on my website

2342
01:33:40,129 --> 01:33:39,000
um so I'm doing that right now uh I am

2343
01:33:41,930 --> 01:33:40,139
working on I've got a couple other

2344
01:33:44,149 --> 01:33:41,940
projects that are percolated right now

2345
01:33:45,410 --> 01:33:44,159
which I'm posting about mostly on my

2346
01:33:48,169 --> 01:33:45,420
Instagram like I said but also on

2347
01:33:51,830 --> 01:33:48,179
Twitter and uh yeah there you go

2348
01:33:53,570 --> 01:33:51,840
love it the work never stops Sarah I

2349
01:33:55,729 --> 01:33:53,580
gotta thank you once again for coming on

2350
01:33:56,970 --> 01:33:55,739
somewhere in the skies Brian thank you

2351
01:34:26,689 --> 01:33:56,980
so much this is wonderful

2352
01:34:38,410 --> 01:34:26,699
[Music]